TrinityDawn

The fact of the matter is that this is simply a proposal from the MEC to the company. Nothing official has been released yet, and I doubt language has even been crafted. The truth is that this will NEVER be approved by AAG. We just spent two years being beat down by Jerry Glass and Dougwiser over a few dollars a block hour. When the union tried to get Endeavor-style bonuses to retain experienced F/O's, Envoy management including Pedro were all for it...and AAG management quickly made it clear it would never happen. "Why should we?" they said. "You have flow to AA! That's all you need to attract new hires!" The ONLY thing AAG cares about is who is the lowest bidder. Paying new-hire pilots anything other than first year pay after sinking 30k into them for training goes against everything we have learned about the "new American" since the hostile takeover. AAG has zero incentive to do this, because the last thing they want is for pilots to think their experience is a valuable commodity.

Personally, I think undermining seniority is wrong. With that being said, what SHOULD happen is ALPA pushing a national seniority list at ALL the ALPA carriers, but we saw their true colors when they willingly approved PSA's back-stabbing of Envoy.

Eaglefly/Thrustlever/Lord Hummugus can ***** all he wants about certain members of our MEC apparently trying to screw other regionals for Envoy's gain, and I might even agree with him to some extent, but the original sin STILL resides with the APA for allowing ANY flying to be done outside their list. They allowed this regional model to exist through their greed. Once the camel was in the tent, they spent decades and countless negociating capital to reclaim scope and mostly failed. The reason the regionals are failing now is because management became far too greedy for the regional business model to succeed. By the time they understand what they've done, the regionals will be dead.

Labor portability is what we truly need in this industry to force airline management to deal with supply and demand once again and raise pilot salaries across the board. This proposal might be a step in the right direction despite the short term pain, but it won't happen at AAG. What's more likely is that within 5-10 years, the regionals simply won't exist anymore.

eaglefly

Exactly what I've said from the beginning. It TARGETS orher carriers junior pilots (AKA poaching) and we know this is under consideration because there are insufficient new-hires from the street. Off course when the pilots at those poached carriers can't replace the poached pilots lured to Envoy, they contract, suffer downgrades and possibly fail.

Winners and losers.

But isn't that pilot's do nowday's..................screw each other to get ahead ?

eaglefly

There are a dozen or so idiots that post this same response of meaninglessness. You cannot refute or defend the issue competantly enough so you resort to gobbledygook claim of loose screws, mental illness and substance abuse.

Learn to discuss/debate properly or buzz off and quit wasting everyone's time including your own.

eaglefly

Cute name !

...........but learn to read.

eaglefly

Jesus, what is it with comprehension skills these days ?

As I've stated in this thread already (but due to the foamy jowls of the angry salesmen, it keeps getting missed), there's nothing wrong with paying more. That's GOOD. The problem lies when pilot groups turn on each other to create an atmosphere of winners and losers.

I won't be happy to do such a thing. I'm saying I will have little choice BUT to do so, i.e., follow the majority next time unlike last time. I'm saying if put to vote attached with more cash (higher rates to match what Delta will surely have then), the majority will. The majority was willing to trade work rules for pay before and so since there's little left to offer next time except scope and a few other things, Parker will know both what button to push and just how the majority will react.

That won't be good for those junior. Sorry.

Of course, there should be no complaint from present Envoy pilots/future AA flows as since Envoy ALPA and it appears many of the pilots there have little concern of capitalizing on the misfortune of others if they gain and in fact, go even further by rationalizing CREATING that situation, and so then they should have little argument in the future when the same philosophy is applied to them, yes ?

Nothing personal, just business...........you know, pilots looking out for #1. You can be sure most will rationalize it too.

What's good for the goose, surely must be good for the gander in the world of airline pilots who subscribe to cannibalism. Sadly, I think karma could end being a real ***** in the future and the ultimate irony for those willing to embrace the philosophy of every pilot for himself in whatever form it takes.

Don't blame me, I'm just highlighting the realities of the environment it appears many pilots want and now especially at Envoy with the new "retention and recruitment" scheme that if designed to specifically target other carriers is really just a sugared up poaching scheme that does nothing but weaken us all.

See you on the flip side.

eaglefly

A PERFECT example of the rationalization I'm talking about. A true self-centered huckster will twist his scam in any direction necessary to convince the mark there IS no scam.

A priceless post on the subject if there ever was one.

eaglefly

So your argument here is that because it won't be approved, the concept wasn't embraced by a union or its pilots ?



I'm not arguing against "portability" per se, but pilot groups specifically targeting OTHER pilot groups to gain at their expense. If street hires were available, this scheme would be neither necessary nor proposed, but we no WHY it is. It IS, because Envoy ALPA is worried they'll be a loser without it and they are willing to prevent that even if they must create other losers in the process of trying to win.

...and THIS is where "unionism" is now at in this segment of the industry ?

It's become nothing more then a rotted house filled with rats of various sizes all feeding on each other (or planning to) and it's become quite pathetic.

adspilot

You keep saying this will have a negative impact on other companies. Why can't you see the more likely possibility of those companies doing something to keep and attract more pilots? You really think this one small insignificent step will be the doom and gloom of certain regional carriers? From what I keep reading that is your whole argument.

I don't think you are ever going to convince people that paying more experienced pilots more than a new CFI is a bad/immoral thing. It's just not going to happen.

eaglefly

You obviously don't get it, do you ?

First of all, there are virtually no street pilots, which is the whole point of luring pilots from elsewhere via a lateral move. Even your chief water salesman admits "staffing is the new currency" and thus the goal is for Envoy to raid others pilots via lateral pay offers as well as lure in what few street hires there are, so that Envoy wins. Considering that, it means others lose, but yes, then they too will be forced to act and likely in the near future, Envoy ALPA's scheme would fail anyway.

The "doom and gloom" may just end up being Envoy's, for without firing that first shot DIRECTLY at others, they won't return fire with a potentially fatal wound to Envoy.

Be careful for what you wish for.

Very possible. Since you think that way, it seems you've run your course with this discussion and perhaps it's time to stop annoying yourself. You can be sure I'll be watching whatever show Envoy ALPA begins and ultimately, just like in the past, I think eventually they'll have a meeting to say to themselves....."now what ?", and determine what new moves they can do to assist management with a problem they created.

Don't you find it kinda silly (actually disturbing) that your own union is essentially negotiating pay raises for pilots NOT ALREADY ON YOUR SENIORITY LIST ?

You think Parker's going to give YOU a raise along with pilots from other airlines ?

Think again, pal. Why would he need to do that, if THAT aspect doesn't bring more pilots to Envoy (if AAG really wants that anyway) ?

You know what.............."portability" among carriers IS a good idea for Envoy pilots because in the end, it may just be THEM that uses it and it that situation should AAG have fallen for this poorly thought out hair-brained idea, they'll have only provided a pathway for the junior pilots to bail more easily leaving the mid-level and senior suckers to twist in the wind as Envoy shrinks again.

Feel lucky ?

I hope so, because no one cares about a loser, at least at Envoy.

IceManCRJ

Sounds like a great idea to me. Hopefully it works and it forces my airline to do something more dramatic to attract pilots (maybe better work rules or higher pay). Then envoy can do something else and it goes on and on. Let management whipsaw each other for a change and guess who wins in the end?


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