$100,000 Minimum Regional First Officer
08-16-2015, 04:23 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
I'm glad you were not in charge for the revolution.
You would be posting that British rule is bad, but what can we do? We will never win.
Or these new automobiles will never replace horses.
08-16-2015, 04:40 AM
#43
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 482
Unless you have your own practice you will NOT make anywhere close to $750,000 as a surgeon. Urology surgeon is one of the highest and they make roughly $500,000. If you have your own practice you can very well make above $750,000. Having your own practice = paying your own liability insurance which isn't cheap. As an 8 + year regional pilot I would love to make $200,000 but ita not realistic and will never happen. I do agree that the pay needs to be much higher especially first year FO. I think $55,000-$65,000 first year FO pay and $100,000 for first year captain would be a good start.
08-16-2015, 04:47 AM
#44
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
The pay gap between mainline, and the regionals has widened over the last years so far, that regional pay could more than triple, and still be cost effective for management. Mainline pay is about 4% of revenue, regional pay is less than 1%, historically pilot pay has been 10%-15% of revenue.
08-16-2015, 04:56 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: CRJ CA
Posts: 328
I started at a regional and am now in my 30th year as a Delta pilot. (Former Northwest)
To some, I'm sure it sounds crazy that the minimum starting salary for a first officer in a 50 seat jet needs to be $100,000 and $160,000 for a first year captain.
Open your mind and embrace the value of your education, training and experience.
THE MYTH
The regionals can't afford to pay those wages.
Imagine jet fuel goes to $4.00 a gallon. Your management says to the supplier, "we cannot afford $4.00 per gallon, you will have to accept $2.00 per gallon."
Do you think this would fly?
The supply of pilots was so strong that management got used to paying us little to nothing.
THE PARTY IS OVER
LIABILITY
If a $750,000 per year surgeon accidentally kills a patient, what is the liability?
If the pilots of a 50 seat jet make a mistake and kill 53 passengers and crew, what it the liability? Why is the cost?
Tens, if not hundreds of millions.
I ask you, what other job has this kind of responsibility? This kind of pressure?
What does your CEO make?
If he makes a mistake, he could get a paper cut and possibly an infection.
Management makes excellent money to run the airline. To cope with $4.00 jet fuel. To cope with paying professional pilots what they are worth.
THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM
Buying into management's story that they cannot afford to pay you what you are worth is nonsense. The legacy carriers need the feed and will pay for it. They are printing money.
One penny less than these numbers must be a no vote.
Every word from your management's mouth is pure manipulation.
PILOTS COST WHAT PILOTS COST
LANDING FEES COST WHAT LANDING FEES COST
SPARE PARTS COST WHAT SPARE PARTS COST
If you hold your ground, there are two possible outcomes.
1) they will agree to these wages
2) they will move all the flying to mainline
Legacy management cannot have hundreds of cancelled flights every day due to lack of pilots.
You have all the leverage you need and more.
Take a stand and restore the profession forever.
Jerry Fielding
To some, I'm sure it sounds crazy that the minimum starting salary for a first officer in a 50 seat jet needs to be $100,000 and $160,000 for a first year captain.
Open your mind and embrace the value of your education, training and experience.
THE MYTH
The regionals can't afford to pay those wages.
Imagine jet fuel goes to $4.00 a gallon. Your management says to the supplier, "we cannot afford $4.00 per gallon, you will have to accept $2.00 per gallon."
Do you think this would fly?
The supply of pilots was so strong that management got used to paying us little to nothing.
THE PARTY IS OVER
LIABILITY
If a $750,000 per year surgeon accidentally kills a patient, what is the liability?
If the pilots of a 50 seat jet make a mistake and kill 53 passengers and crew, what it the liability? Why is the cost?
Tens, if not hundreds of millions.
I ask you, what other job has this kind of responsibility? This kind of pressure?
What does your CEO make?
If he makes a mistake, he could get a paper cut and possibly an infection.
Management makes excellent money to run the airline. To cope with $4.00 jet fuel. To cope with paying professional pilots what they are worth.
THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM
Buying into management's story that they cannot afford to pay you what you are worth is nonsense. The legacy carriers need the feed and will pay for it. They are printing money.
One penny less than these numbers must be a no vote.
Every word from your management's mouth is pure manipulation.
PILOTS COST WHAT PILOTS COST
LANDING FEES COST WHAT LANDING FEES COST
SPARE PARTS COST WHAT SPARE PARTS COST
If you hold your ground, there are two possible outcomes.
1) they will agree to these wages
2) they will move all the flying to mainline
Legacy management cannot have hundreds of cancelled flights every day due to lack of pilots.
You have all the leverage you need and more.
Take a stand and restore the profession forever.
Jerry Fielding
In the VERY recent past, Majors like USAirways, Continental, United and American paid first year pilots $30,000 or so per year! Now, just like that the Regionals should be able to pay $100 K? The real problem is what the majors are willing to pay their regional affiliates for the feed. The OP acts like labor can just demand this pay without their customers being willing to just fork over more than twice the money they are paying for the feed. I doubt that will happen....
How about this, mainline pilots insist all the flying be done at the majors, bring the regional pilots on and then pay them more.
08-16-2015, 06:05 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Position: Downward-Facing Dog Pose
Posts: 1,537
I started at a regional and am now in my 30th year as a Delta pilot. (Former Northwest)
To some, I'm sure it sounds crazy that the minimum starting salary for a first officer in a 50 seat jet needs to be $100,000 and $160,000 for a first year captain.
Open your mind and embrace the value of your education, training and experience.
THE MYTH
The regionals can't afford to pay those wages.
Imagine jet fuel goes to $4.00 a gallon. Your management says to the supplier, "we cannot afford $4.00 per gallon, you will have to accept $2.00 per gallon."
Do you think this would fly?
The supply of pilots was so strong that management got used to paying us little to nothing.
THE PARTY IS OVER
LIABILITY
If a $750,000 per year surgeon accidentally kills a patient, what is the liability?
If the pilots of a 50 seat jet make a mistake and kill 53 passengers and crew, what it the liability? Why is the cost?
Tens, if not hundreds of millions.
I ask you, what other job has this kind of responsibility? This kind of pressure?
What does your CEO make?
If he makes a mistake, he could get a paper cut and possibly an infection.
Management makes excellent money to run the airline. To cope with $4.00 jet fuel. To cope with paying professional pilots what they are worth.
THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM
Buying into management's story that they cannot afford to pay you what you are worth is nonsense. The legacy carriers need the feed and will pay for it. They are printing money.
One penny less than these numbers must be a no vote.
Every word from your management's mouth is pure manipulation.
PILOTS COST WHAT PILOTS COST
LANDING FEES COST WHAT LANDING FEES COST
SPARE PARTS COST WHAT SPARE PARTS COST
If you hold your ground, there are two possible outcomes.
1) they will agree to these wages
2) they will move all the flying to mainline
Legacy management cannot have hundreds of cancelled flights every day due to lack of pilots.
You have all the leverage you need and more.
Take a stand and restore the profession forever.
Jerry Fielding
To some, I'm sure it sounds crazy that the minimum starting salary for a first officer in a 50 seat jet needs to be $100,000 and $160,000 for a first year captain.
Open your mind and embrace the value of your education, training and experience.
THE MYTH
The regionals can't afford to pay those wages.
Imagine jet fuel goes to $4.00 a gallon. Your management says to the supplier, "we cannot afford $4.00 per gallon, you will have to accept $2.00 per gallon."
Do you think this would fly?
The supply of pilots was so strong that management got used to paying us little to nothing.
THE PARTY IS OVER
LIABILITY
If a $750,000 per year surgeon accidentally kills a patient, what is the liability?
If the pilots of a 50 seat jet make a mistake and kill 53 passengers and crew, what it the liability? Why is the cost?
Tens, if not hundreds of millions.
I ask you, what other job has this kind of responsibility? This kind of pressure?
What does your CEO make?
If he makes a mistake, he could get a paper cut and possibly an infection.
Management makes excellent money to run the airline. To cope with $4.00 jet fuel. To cope with paying professional pilots what they are worth.
THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM
Buying into management's story that they cannot afford to pay you what you are worth is nonsense. The legacy carriers need the feed and will pay for it. They are printing money.
One penny less than these numbers must be a no vote.
Every word from your management's mouth is pure manipulation.
PILOTS COST WHAT PILOTS COST
LANDING FEES COST WHAT LANDING FEES COST
SPARE PARTS COST WHAT SPARE PARTS COST
If you hold your ground, there are two possible outcomes.
1) they will agree to these wages
2) they will move all the flying to mainline
Legacy management cannot have hundreds of cancelled flights every day due to lack of pilots.
You have all the leverage you need and more.
Take a stand and restore the profession forever.
Jerry Fielding
Subscribed.
Where do I send my dues (because it sure as hell isn't ALPA)?
08-16-2015, 06:37 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 802
1. Regional pilots, particularly F.O.'s should make more
2. The dollar values posted by the OP for first year pay is fantasy, and I am hoping he only posted such to make a point
3. The majors don't pay 100/hr to start. Delta's scales for the crj and e -190 never make it to 100/hr in 12 yrs. the 717 doesn't break 100/hr until yr 3
4. the various posters on various threads that state for all regional flying to go to mainline are also posting fantasy. Not only won't it happen, for the benefit of many, we should hope it doesn't. If it happens:
a) there would be a HUGE drop in the number of employed pilots, and others. Smaller aircraft simply will not support, without completely redoing the current airline business model, the increase benefits...retirement,B fund, etc. Don't forget that every single person at the mainline that is involved in these aircraft is also paid more with higher benefits. The flying would simply go away, along with the attached jobs. I won't even get into the reduced service to the countries cities and the resultant economic dominos.
b) From where does anyone think this extra money will be drawn from? Exec pay and bonuses? Hedge fund and other stock holders in the form of reduced profits or stock buyback programs? Reduced dividends? No, they will come out of the lives of the employees who make any airline run. There would be more outsourcing, layoffs, reduced pay/benefits etc. Then we could sit in our cockpits and ***** about how poor the ramp is. Ladies and gentlemen, there is a correlation.
c. For every merged/absorbed/liquidated airline, that means one less airline to apply at. It also means that ,when down to just a few airlines, the so called "plums"can run as fascist an outfit as they like. What are you going to do...go somewhere else? What will you do if those few don't hire you...remember, there will be fewer working pilots.
5. This may be beyond the comprehension of some, but not everyone wants to be number 12,008 on a seniority list. Not everyone marches to the same drummer.
6. I am not convinced that Delta's experiment with the 717 will pan out for them. When our current phase of profits passes, they may find out that the current airline business model doesn't support a smaller aircraft with mainline costs. (ya read it here first,folks!)
While more extreme, it was done at least once before. Southern Airways tried to utilize Metroliners in their fleet. It was a short lived experiment.
7. Efforts would be better expended on some sort of national senority list for a given union to protect the careers of those who will find themselves unemployed. While complicated, with many fences and restrictions built in for safety, a method could be had. Much work was done on it in the 80's. It could be dusted off and revised. The opponents then, as probably today, somehow think that either history won't repeat itself, or somehow they have grasped that brass ring and will never need it. History says that is unlikely.
8. As airlines have consolidated, and would even more if absorb the regionals, we have backed ourselves into a negotiating corner. More and more restrictive labor laws and court precedents have defanged not just ALPA, but pretty much all unions. We can neither strike nor count on support from coworkers in any dispute. I predict it just a matter of time and concessions will be rammed down the throats of even the largest most profitable airlines. There will be nothing done because we can'rt strike. We are generations past those who would engage in civil disobedience and disrupt the operation illegally. (the handful who engaged would be picked off one by one, fired, and depending on the political climate, possibly jailed)
If my dire prediction doesn't come true in that area, then I expect an end run of our protected staus by making an open skies agreement in the USA. Our employers would partner with foreign airlines to fly domestically for much less. Either that, or the country would be just opened up to all airlines and let the chips fall where they may. It fits the world ideology of many who craft policy from the govt,universities and think tanks. (not to mention the media). I consider it a likely result of a Republican Senate/House/White House. It would be preceded by a public campaign highlighting US legacy senior pay and benefits and relating that to the poor abused consumer. The nuanced truth wouldn't have a chance.
Without union leaders who take stands on moral principles and conduct themselves as unionists rather than just short term opportunists, I have a pessimistic view of the future.
Hopefully I am wrong.
2. The dollar values posted by the OP for first year pay is fantasy, and I am hoping he only posted such to make a point
3. The majors don't pay 100/hr to start. Delta's scales for the crj and e -190 never make it to 100/hr in 12 yrs. the 717 doesn't break 100/hr until yr 3
4. the various posters on various threads that state for all regional flying to go to mainline are also posting fantasy. Not only won't it happen, for the benefit of many, we should hope it doesn't. If it happens:
a) there would be a HUGE drop in the number of employed pilots, and others. Smaller aircraft simply will not support, without completely redoing the current airline business model, the increase benefits...retirement,B fund, etc. Don't forget that every single person at the mainline that is involved in these aircraft is also paid more with higher benefits. The flying would simply go away, along with the attached jobs. I won't even get into the reduced service to the countries cities and the resultant economic dominos.
b) From where does anyone think this extra money will be drawn from? Exec pay and bonuses? Hedge fund and other stock holders in the form of reduced profits or stock buyback programs? Reduced dividends? No, they will come out of the lives of the employees who make any airline run. There would be more outsourcing, layoffs, reduced pay/benefits etc. Then we could sit in our cockpits and ***** about how poor the ramp is. Ladies and gentlemen, there is a correlation.
c. For every merged/absorbed/liquidated airline, that means one less airline to apply at. It also means that ,when down to just a few airlines, the so called "plums"can run as fascist an outfit as they like. What are you going to do...go somewhere else? What will you do if those few don't hire you...remember, there will be fewer working pilots.
5. This may be beyond the comprehension of some, but not everyone wants to be number 12,008 on a seniority list. Not everyone marches to the same drummer.
6. I am not convinced that Delta's experiment with the 717 will pan out for them. When our current phase of profits passes, they may find out that the current airline business model doesn't support a smaller aircraft with mainline costs. (ya read it here first,folks!)
While more extreme, it was done at least once before. Southern Airways tried to utilize Metroliners in their fleet. It was a short lived experiment.
7. Efforts would be better expended on some sort of national senority list for a given union to protect the careers of those who will find themselves unemployed. While complicated, with many fences and restrictions built in for safety, a method could be had. Much work was done on it in the 80's. It could be dusted off and revised. The opponents then, as probably today, somehow think that either history won't repeat itself, or somehow they have grasped that brass ring and will never need it. History says that is unlikely.
8. As airlines have consolidated, and would even more if absorb the regionals, we have backed ourselves into a negotiating corner. More and more restrictive labor laws and court precedents have defanged not just ALPA, but pretty much all unions. We can neither strike nor count on support from coworkers in any dispute. I predict it just a matter of time and concessions will be rammed down the throats of even the largest most profitable airlines. There will be nothing done because we can'rt strike. We are generations past those who would engage in civil disobedience and disrupt the operation illegally. (the handful who engaged would be picked off one by one, fired, and depending on the political climate, possibly jailed)
If my dire prediction doesn't come true in that area, then I expect an end run of our protected staus by making an open skies agreement in the USA. Our employers would partner with foreign airlines to fly domestically for much less. Either that, or the country would be just opened up to all airlines and let the chips fall where they may. It fits the world ideology of many who craft policy from the govt,universities and think tanks. (not to mention the media). I consider it a likely result of a Republican Senate/House/White House. It would be preceded by a public campaign highlighting US legacy senior pay and benefits and relating that to the poor abused consumer. The nuanced truth wouldn't have a chance.
Without union leaders who take stands on moral principles and conduct themselves as unionists rather than just short term opportunists, I have a pessimistic view of the future.
Hopefully I am wrong.
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