No, dummy, RA pay is NOT "Capitalism"
05-09-2015, 09:27 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 609
Actually, it is true. True capitalism would allow the pilots to strike, but...
Judge rules against Allegiant Air pilots, prevents imminent strike - Tampa Bay Business Journal
Interesting. How would you go about this?
.
Judge rules against Allegiant Air pilots, prevents imminent strike - Tampa Bay Business Journal
Interesting. How would you go about this?
.
05-09-2015, 10:40 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,011
Actually, it is true. True capitalism would allow the pilots to strike, but...
Judge rules against Allegiant Air pilots, prevents imminent strike - Tampa Bay Business Journal
Interesting. How would you go about this?
.
Judge rules against Allegiant Air pilots, prevents imminent strike - Tampa Bay Business Journal
Interesting. How would you go about this?
.
05-10-2015, 04:44 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 471
Couple of ways- stop accepting overtime, stop flying as an FO if you are a Captain, dump your union altogether (go unionless) and let anarchy reign, don't engage in bargaining that lowers quality of life in exchange for more airplanes or flow agreements. If its not a great place to work, smarter people won't work there and nature will just take its course. Let the company decide if they want more airplanes or flow to attract new hires, it has nothing to do with you.
05-10-2015, 08:17 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: It's hot out here.
Posts: 615
I know how to stop this. Start a union then after it gets big enough write some books about how important it is to have a pilots union and stick together. Then give in to management and give up your scope to protect your higher pay scales. Allow the newer association's to join but be sure the rules mostly apply to you while giving the appearance of equality. If when the newbie's start to complain explain what they are doing wrong and tell them they should not have accepted a job like that with those terms. Oh wait that's already been done. Never mind
05-10-2015, 09:56 AM
#36
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 58
In the late 1800s Rockefeller setup the Standard Oil Trust where the oil companies had to sell out to Standard Oil or join into a secret alliance with them. The Standard Oil Trust was able to control almost all of the oil in the US. People think that monopolies only raise prices but often they are able to push down prices to shutout competition from other technologies. Standard became the only buyer for oil train cars, pipelines, and other items to produce and transport kerosene used to light homes. It set the prices. It was able to drive the price down from 58 to 26 cents which greatly slowed the development of the new electrical systems who had difficulty competing at that price level. Consumers liked the lower prices but paid in other ways.
Currently we have the United Trust, the Delta Trust, and the American Trust and they have acted together to drive down the regional costs. The current model, several independent carriers that compete to operate under the Trust's umbrella. When they are able to keep their costs down they are rewarded with more flying. If a regional is not able to keep the costs down flying is shifted away. The regional is able to tell their pilots and flight attendants that they can't pay anymore or United/Delta/AA will take some of their flying away. And they will.
What other purposes are there to have regional airlines than to drive down the wages and benefits of pilots and flight attendants and to be able to outsource maintenance to low cost operations. Other than pilots and FAs there are not many employees at a regional.
Delta experimented with its own regional, ComAir, and American with Eagle. But those employees demanded higher wages and benefits than the independents. So ComAir was shutdown and Eagle shrunk and is being turned into another independent. ComAir's planes were sent to Gojet and others willing to fly the planes for half the price that the Comair employees cost in pay and benefits. The receiving carriers are told of the great benefits they get from faster upgrades.
For an extra dollar an hour or so the pilots at the mainline carriers agree to allow bigger and more airplanes to be flown by the regionals. Do you ever see an airline place an order for more mainline planes without tying it in with a deal to allow more RJ flying?
Now they regionals are having trouble finding pilots because who wants to work for 18000 a year. People think 23 but remember during training you don't get full pay. Are they increasing pay to bring back many of the thousands of pilots who had to go overseas to make a living? No, they go to the government and demand that the standards get lowered. They go to the government and want the government to setup programs to make pilots who will work for 18k a year. And finally, they start to offer signing bonuses to the new guys so that they can keep paying the current guys nothing. They don't want to pay all the pilots more when they can merely pay the bottom 10% more. For every one they pay a signing bonus to they are able to not pay 10 pilots at a market rate. Most of the pilots there won't leave because they want their precious PIC time or they can't afford to start at the bottom again.
An airline with a union contract cannot pay someone outside of that contract - period. If it wants to change the pay it must come to an agreement with the union. If a contact has expired and is being negotiated there is "status quo". The company cannot pay outside of the expired contract and status quo- period.
If your union lawyers are telling you something else you need to get new union lawyers who look out for the pilots and not the union.
Stop the bonuses and your pay will increase dramatically. Send your union lawyers to court to get injunctions to stop the bonuses.
Let the companies compete based upon the contracts, not the bonuses. Beat the bonus, market pay for all! Beat the bonus, market pay for all!
Currently we have the United Trust, the Delta Trust, and the American Trust and they have acted together to drive down the regional costs. The current model, several independent carriers that compete to operate under the Trust's umbrella. When they are able to keep their costs down they are rewarded with more flying. If a regional is not able to keep the costs down flying is shifted away. The regional is able to tell their pilots and flight attendants that they can't pay anymore or United/Delta/AA will take some of their flying away. And they will.
What other purposes are there to have regional airlines than to drive down the wages and benefits of pilots and flight attendants and to be able to outsource maintenance to low cost operations. Other than pilots and FAs there are not many employees at a regional.
Delta experimented with its own regional, ComAir, and American with Eagle. But those employees demanded higher wages and benefits than the independents. So ComAir was shutdown and Eagle shrunk and is being turned into another independent. ComAir's planes were sent to Gojet and others willing to fly the planes for half the price that the Comair employees cost in pay and benefits. The receiving carriers are told of the great benefits they get from faster upgrades.
For an extra dollar an hour or so the pilots at the mainline carriers agree to allow bigger and more airplanes to be flown by the regionals. Do you ever see an airline place an order for more mainline planes without tying it in with a deal to allow more RJ flying?
Now they regionals are having trouble finding pilots because who wants to work for 18000 a year. People think 23 but remember during training you don't get full pay. Are they increasing pay to bring back many of the thousands of pilots who had to go overseas to make a living? No, they go to the government and demand that the standards get lowered. They go to the government and want the government to setup programs to make pilots who will work for 18k a year. And finally, they start to offer signing bonuses to the new guys so that they can keep paying the current guys nothing. They don't want to pay all the pilots more when they can merely pay the bottom 10% more. For every one they pay a signing bonus to they are able to not pay 10 pilots at a market rate. Most of the pilots there won't leave because they want their precious PIC time or they can't afford to start at the bottom again.
An airline with a union contract cannot pay someone outside of that contract - period. If it wants to change the pay it must come to an agreement with the union. If a contact has expired and is being negotiated there is "status quo". The company cannot pay outside of the expired contract and status quo- period.
If your union lawyers are telling you something else you need to get new union lawyers who look out for the pilots and not the union.
Stop the bonuses and your pay will increase dramatically. Send your union lawyers to court to get injunctions to stop the bonuses.
Let the companies compete based upon the contracts, not the bonuses. Beat the bonus, market pay for all! Beat the bonus, market pay for all!
05-11-2015, 05:07 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,011
In the late 1800s Rockefeller setup the Standard Oil Trust where the oil companies had to sell out to Standard Oil or join into a secret alliance with them. The Standard Oil Trust was able to control almost all of the oil in the US. People think that monopolies only raise prices but often they are able to push down prices to shutout competition from other technologies. Standard became the only buyer for oil train cars, pipelines, and other items to produce and transport kerosene used to light homes. It set the prices. It was able to drive the price down from 58 to 26 cents which greatly slowed the development of the new electrical systems who had difficulty competing at that price level. Consumers liked the lower prices but paid in other ways.
Currently we have the United Trust, the Delta Trust, and the American Trust and they have acted together to drive down the regional costs. The current model, several independent carriers that compete to operate under the Trust's umbrella. When they are able to keep their costs down they are rewarded with more flying. If a regional is not able to keep the costs down flying is shifted away. The regional is able to tell their pilots and flight attendants that they can't pay anymore or United/Delta/AA will take some of their flying away. And they will.
What other purposes are there to have regional airlines than to drive down the wages and benefits of pilots and flight attendants and to be able to outsource maintenance to low cost operations. Other than pilots and FAs there are not many employees at a regional.
Delta experimented with its own regional, ComAir, and American with Eagle. But those employees demanded higher wages and benefits than the independents. So ComAir was shutdown and Eagle shrunk and is being turned into another independent. ComAir's planes were sent to Gojet and others willing to fly the planes for half the price that the Comair employees cost in pay and benefits. The receiving carriers are told of the great benefits they get from faster upgrades.
For an extra dollar an hour or so the pilots at the mainline carriers agree to allow bigger and more airplanes to be flown by the regionals. Do you ever see an airline place an order for more mainline planes without tying it in with a deal to allow more RJ flying?
Now they regionals are having trouble finding pilots because who wants to work for 18000 a year. People think 23 but remember during training you don't get full pay. Are they increasing pay to bring back many of the thousands of pilots who had to go overseas to make a living? No, they go to the government and demand that the standards get lowered. They go to the government and want the government to setup programs to make pilots who will work for 18k a year. And finally, they start to offer signing bonuses to the new guys so that they can keep paying the current guys nothing. They don't want to pay all the pilots more when they can merely pay the bottom 10% more. For every one they pay a signing bonus to they are able to not pay 10 pilots at a market rate. Most of the pilots there won't leave because they want their precious PIC time or they can't afford to start at the bottom again.
An airline with a union contract cannot pay someone outside of that contract - period. If it wants to change the pay it must come to an agreement with the union. If a contact has expired and is being negotiated there is "status quo". The company cannot pay outside of the expired contract and status quo- period.
If your union lawyers are telling you something else you need to get new union lawyers who look out for the pilots and not the union.
Stop the bonuses and your pay will increase dramatically. Send your union lawyers to court to get injunctions to stop the bonuses.
Let the companies compete based upon the contracts, not the bonuses. Beat the bonus, market pay for all! Beat the bonus, market pay for all!
Currently we have the United Trust, the Delta Trust, and the American Trust and they have acted together to drive down the regional costs. The current model, several independent carriers that compete to operate under the Trust's umbrella. When they are able to keep their costs down they are rewarded with more flying. If a regional is not able to keep the costs down flying is shifted away. The regional is able to tell their pilots and flight attendants that they can't pay anymore or United/Delta/AA will take some of their flying away. And they will.
What other purposes are there to have regional airlines than to drive down the wages and benefits of pilots and flight attendants and to be able to outsource maintenance to low cost operations. Other than pilots and FAs there are not many employees at a regional.
Delta experimented with its own regional, ComAir, and American with Eagle. But those employees demanded higher wages and benefits than the independents. So ComAir was shutdown and Eagle shrunk and is being turned into another independent. ComAir's planes were sent to Gojet and others willing to fly the planes for half the price that the Comair employees cost in pay and benefits. The receiving carriers are told of the great benefits they get from faster upgrades.
For an extra dollar an hour or so the pilots at the mainline carriers agree to allow bigger and more airplanes to be flown by the regionals. Do you ever see an airline place an order for more mainline planes without tying it in with a deal to allow more RJ flying?
Now they regionals are having trouble finding pilots because who wants to work for 18000 a year. People think 23 but remember during training you don't get full pay. Are they increasing pay to bring back many of the thousands of pilots who had to go overseas to make a living? No, they go to the government and demand that the standards get lowered. They go to the government and want the government to setup programs to make pilots who will work for 18k a year. And finally, they start to offer signing bonuses to the new guys so that they can keep paying the current guys nothing. They don't want to pay all the pilots more when they can merely pay the bottom 10% more. For every one they pay a signing bonus to they are able to not pay 10 pilots at a market rate. Most of the pilots there won't leave because they want their precious PIC time or they can't afford to start at the bottom again.
An airline with a union contract cannot pay someone outside of that contract - period. If it wants to change the pay it must come to an agreement with the union. If a contact has expired and is being negotiated there is "status quo". The company cannot pay outside of the expired contract and status quo- period.
If your union lawyers are telling you something else you need to get new union lawyers who look out for the pilots and not the union.
Stop the bonuses and your pay will increase dramatically. Send your union lawyers to court to get injunctions to stop the bonuses.
Let the companies compete based upon the contracts, not the bonuses. Beat the bonus, market pay for all! Beat the bonus, market pay for all!
05-11-2015, 06:04 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 471
Couple of ways- stop accepting overtime, stop flying as an FO if you are a Captain, dump your union altogether (go unionless) and let anarchy reign, don't engage in bargaining that lowers quality of life in exchange for more airplanes or flow agreements. If its not a great place to work, smarter people won't work there and nature will just take its course. Let the company decide if they want more airplanes or flow to attract new hires, it has nothing to do with you.
05-11-2015, 06:11 AM
#39
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Gloop, with the openers for DAL section 6, neither side wanted to touch RJ scope. The mainline union didn't even ask for a pie-in-the-sky recapture of flying.
05-11-2015, 07:38 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
The regionals are the only way major airline pilots can gauge themselves professionally. They get to turn their noses up to the regional pilot as he passes by in the concourses only to log onto the forums and hand down life lessons, all while keeping completely silent in your jumpseat. They may beat their wives, wear white sneakers with stone washed jeans, and have a son that despises them...but at the end of the day, at least they're not regional pilots.
In fact, there are plenty of us who would like all flying to be under mainline but that's a tough genie to put back in the bottle.
Your post stereotyped mainline pilots. I could do the same by posting about the brand new regional pilot who had his epaulets on backward. When I told him that, he said, 'are you sure'? So all of you regional pilots wear your epaulets backward.
That was no less silly than your post.
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