U.S. Regionals Struggling To Attract Pilots
05-06-2015, 11:23 AM
#31
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 45
It's contributed to where it is now .But you
have to look at where it's going..10 years
ago I would completely agree with your statement but the new generation seems
a bit more interested in friends and family
and making more money out of college.
Regionals will have to offer up more and
some already are..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
have to look at where it's going..10 years
ago I would completely agree with your statement but the new generation seems
a bit more interested in friends and family
and making more money out of college.
Regionals will have to offer up more and
some already are..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We either stand up for what we feel is fare, or seek what we want elsewhere. But those that do neither perpetuate the situation at hand.
05-06-2015, 11:38 AM
#32
Need More Flight Time!
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Flight Simulator X
Posts: 400
I agree that there will always be people doing someone's job for less. But as far as entry level airline jobs, I think that number is declining in a big way; largely thanks to the Internet and social media.
When Captain Sullenberger made statements like these last week, I think the writing is already on the wall:
"This widespread perception, that jobs, entry level jobs at the regional carriers are not good ones, is deserved. And it's become more widely known. And I think to the extent there are people who are making other life choices for themselves and for their families, it's because of that. This is something that they have done to themselves, and it's easily reconcilable, if they simple offer starting wages and working conditions that would attract qualified candidates which are out there, but who are currently doing other things."
"Pilot passion will only carry you so far, the same as passion for any profession will. At some point, like everyone else, like all of us, we are going to want to be able to buy a car, or have a family, or eventually buy a house, and have a life. And we need to have a career path that's going to enable us to do that. That's why the regional airlines have had so much trouble, because they've been offering for so many years, a substandard set of wages and working conditions and to try to continue to make fit in the real world a broken economic model."
05-06-2015, 11:43 AM
#33
"Yinzer an'at"
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Position: Sittin at the puter
Posts: 186
The current regional airline industry is a Frankenstein Monster created by the majors. They cannot survive on their own. The depend on the major for traffic but they cannot operate on their own.
Management created the monster and management must fix the monster. It's always easier to just blame the pilots.
Management created the monster and management must fix the monster. It's always easier to just blame the pilots.
05-06-2015, 11:56 AM
#34
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 45
This is the same kind of dreck as "it's just business".
Sure it's correct, according to business schools. But this idea is as absurd as today's tuition costs.
In fact, managers ARE responsible to their customers and their employees.
Saying they aren't doesn't make it true.
Sure it's correct, according to business schools. But this idea is as absurd as today's tuition costs.
In fact, managers ARE responsible to their customers and their employees.
Saying they aren't doesn't make it true.
Look, we now have people announcing their bids for president based on their successes running businesses... expressing their ideas for this country going forward against the very things you're disgusted with in this forum. So stand up for what you want and what you think is fair with your actions, and not endless bantering on a website.
05-06-2015, 12:13 PM
#35
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 45
Not sure what part of my post you disagree with. Hard to disagree with the fact that high school students come to the flight school who want to learn to fly but tells me they have no desire to be airline pilots because of the reasons I stated earlier.
I agree that there will always be people doing someone's job for less. But as far as entry level airline jobs, I think that number is declining in a big way; largely thanks to the Internet and social media.
When Captain Sullenberger made statements like these last week, I think the writing is already on the wall:
"This widespread perception, that jobs, entry level jobs at the regional carriers are not good ones, is deserved. And it's become more widely known. And I think to the extent there are people who are making other life choices for themselves and for their families, it's because of that. This is something that they have done to themselves, and it's easily reconcilable, if they simple offer starting wages and working conditions that would attract qualified candidates which are out there, but who are currently doing other things."
"Pilot passion will only carry you so far, the same as passion for any profession will. At some point, like everyone else, like all of us, we are going to want to be able to buy a car, or have a family, or eventually buy a house, and have a life. And we need to have a career path that's going to enable us to do that. That's why the regional airlines have had so much trouble, because they've been offering for so many years, a substandard set of wages and working conditions and to try to continue to make fit in the real world a broken economic model."
I agree that there will always be people doing someone's job for less. But as far as entry level airline jobs, I think that number is declining in a big way; largely thanks to the Internet and social media.
When Captain Sullenberger made statements like these last week, I think the writing is already on the wall:
"This widespread perception, that jobs, entry level jobs at the regional carriers are not good ones, is deserved. And it's become more widely known. And I think to the extent there are people who are making other life choices for themselves and for their families, it's because of that. This is something that they have done to themselves, and it's easily reconcilable, if they simple offer starting wages and working conditions that would attract qualified candidates which are out there, but who are currently doing other things."
"Pilot passion will only carry you so far, the same as passion for any profession will. At some point, like everyone else, like all of us, we are going to want to be able to buy a car, or have a family, or eventually buy a house, and have a life. And we need to have a career path that's going to enable us to do that. That's why the regional airlines have had so much trouble, because they've been offering for so many years, a substandard set of wages and working conditions and to try to continue to make fit in the real world a broken economic model."
Captain Sullenberger says things like "it's easily reconcilable, if they simply offer starting wages and working conditions that would attract qualified candidates...". Right, but companies don't offer these things when they can hire people who don't demand them. And the fact that customers opt for cheap tickets, and management is pressured by investors and private equity doesn't help the cause.
Like I've said before, imagine if nobody showed up to work, or nobody took that job that doesn't pay enough. Maybe management would feel pressure to incentivize pilots, or bump up ticket costs and pass the resulting income burden onto consumers, like every other business must do to survive. Actions speak louder than words... and the latter is all we're doing here.
05-06-2015, 12:34 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Position: Downward-Facing Dog Pose
Posts: 1,537
05-06-2015, 12:34 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: CRJ
Posts: 419
I just generally disagree that the situation will be fixed because H.S. students, young people, or anyone else will stop taking these jobs. I share your concern for this industry too, but feel that the underlying issue is really only fixed when we stand up as a whole and force our demands.
Captain Sullenberger says things like "it's easily reconcilable, if they simply offer starting wages and working conditions that would attract qualified candidates...". Right, but companies don't offer these things when they can hire people who don't demand them. And the fact that customers opt for cheap tickets, and management is pressured by investors and private equity doesn't help the cause.
Like I've said before, imagine if nobody showed up to work, or nobody took that job that doesn't pay enough. Maybe management would feel pressure to incentivize pilots, or bump up ticket costs and pass the resulting income burden onto consumers, like every other business must do to survive. Actions speak louder than words... and the latter is all we're doing here.
Captain Sullenberger says things like "it's easily reconcilable, if they simply offer starting wages and working conditions that would attract qualified candidates...". Right, but companies don't offer these things when they can hire people who don't demand them. And the fact that customers opt for cheap tickets, and management is pressured by investors and private equity doesn't help the cause.
Like I've said before, imagine if nobody showed up to work, or nobody took that job that doesn't pay enough. Maybe management would feel pressure to incentivize pilots, or bump up ticket costs and pass the resulting income burden onto consumers, like every other business must do to survive. Actions speak louder than words... and the latter is all we're doing here.
05-06-2015, 12:57 PM
#38
Need More Flight Time!
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Flight Simulator X
Posts: 400
Like I've said before, imagine if nobody showed up to work, or nobody took that job that doesn't pay enough. Maybe management would feel pressure to incentivize pilots, or bump up ticket costs and pass the resulting income burden onto consumers, like every other business must do to survive. Actions speak louder than words... and the latter is all we're doing here.
However, the fact that people are no longer interested in the airline career, well, that is action. Action that is happening today. Action that will change the industry...for better or worse.
05-06-2015, 01:34 PM
#39
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 45
No doubt that action speaks louder than words. And I certainly share your sentiment. The only difference is, we both know there's no way for pilots to just walk off the job due to RLA. They would ALL have to quit their jobs at the same time and we both know that's never going to happen.
However, the fact that people are no longer interested in the airline career, well, that is action. Action that is happening today. Action that will change the industry...for better or worse.
However, the fact that people are no longer interested in the airline career, well, that is action. Action that is happening today. Action that will change the industry...for better or worse.
The day that air traffic comes to a screeching halt due to "a substandard set of wages and working conditions" is the same day that it's fixed.
05-06-2015, 08:35 PM
#40
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 58
Do you really think we are seeing capitalism at work? No, we are seeing a distorted system. The majors get the big bucks, above market levels because of the strong unions. (Although the market level is rising quickly and may actually exceed the wages in a year or 2.)
Regional pilots will do anything to get their time to get a shot with the majors and the above market salaries; the carrots. The majors and the regionals know this. They set the market and are very careful not to compete with salary or benefits. The regionals got together and decided what the pay would be. For the last 25 years they have slowly lowered the qualifications to keep the pool of pilots intact. By changing the qualifications they controlled the supply. They could set the wages. They were all in lockstep.
In late 2007 the qualifications required hit the bottom. They could not go below the 200 hours and a pilot shortage began. Then age 60 ended but the shortage continued. Then in early 2008 oil prices skyrocketed. In April 08 ATA went under and pilots were getting DC-10 captain jobs over the phone. Other airlines went out of business a few days later and suddenly there was an overabundance of pilots. One pilot I know had 5 job offers and before class started with all 5 airlines, they all started to furlough.
Then from 2008 to 2014 there was not much hiring and thousands were on furlough. Recalls started and now we are again at the shortage point. Shortage only at this wage level. The RAA manipulation of the pilot market has resulted in no pilots becoming trained the last 7 years. Who can live on 20k a year and pay his student loans. The 20k figure is a distortion too because the pay in training is lower. The first year is closer to 18.5k.
But things are not going to change. Market rate for a regional FO now is 40 to 45k and for a Captain it is 100k+. Yet the pilots and the unions are still thinking 20 and 55k. They are looking at a 15% raise when negotiating and they should be thinking 100%. We are all obedient fellows.
The definition of regional pilot in my dictionary is "a type of sheep in the form of a human. Quiet and fed with grass." I am a sheep.
If the pilots at Republic and Gojet would have some balls and stop the breach of the "status quo" with first year bonus' you would see some big pay raises quickly. Stop the bonus' and you will all see a huge raise. Not just the bottom 4%. No bonus' No bonus' No bonus' should be the chant to mean that you all deserve a raise. The market rate for a regional captain is 100k+, demand it and you will get it.
It is not just a "status quo" issue. Every airline with a contract has a pay scale. An airline cannot pay a pilot outside of the contract - period. I have heard all the theories that people use to say that the company is free to pay these bonus' and they are all false. The company cannot have a separate pay scale for pilots they want to hire, it would make the contract worthless. Stop the bonus' and you will get real pay increases.
I'm not faulting any new hire pilot for wanting or taking a bonus, you would be crazy for not wanting and taking one. But you would be better making 20k a year more for the next 20 years than just getting that 10k bonus.
If anyone wants to debate me about the legality of these bonus' I would welcome the challenge. We could start a separate thread. Case law, law review articles, anything relevant. (Of course a union is free to agree to the company giving the bonus', but the discussion assumes the union was not that stupid.)
I know my post exceeds the 140 characters so it probably went unread by 99% of the readers, but, to sum things up, in this market you are worth double what you are being paid and if you stop the bonus' and let the market rule you will get it.
Regional pilots will do anything to get their time to get a shot with the majors and the above market salaries; the carrots. The majors and the regionals know this. They set the market and are very careful not to compete with salary or benefits. The regionals got together and decided what the pay would be. For the last 25 years they have slowly lowered the qualifications to keep the pool of pilots intact. By changing the qualifications they controlled the supply. They could set the wages. They were all in lockstep.
In late 2007 the qualifications required hit the bottom. They could not go below the 200 hours and a pilot shortage began. Then age 60 ended but the shortage continued. Then in early 2008 oil prices skyrocketed. In April 08 ATA went under and pilots were getting DC-10 captain jobs over the phone. Other airlines went out of business a few days later and suddenly there was an overabundance of pilots. One pilot I know had 5 job offers and before class started with all 5 airlines, they all started to furlough.
Then from 2008 to 2014 there was not much hiring and thousands were on furlough. Recalls started and now we are again at the shortage point. Shortage only at this wage level. The RAA manipulation of the pilot market has resulted in no pilots becoming trained the last 7 years. Who can live on 20k a year and pay his student loans. The 20k figure is a distortion too because the pay in training is lower. The first year is closer to 18.5k.
But things are not going to change. Market rate for a regional FO now is 40 to 45k and for a Captain it is 100k+. Yet the pilots and the unions are still thinking 20 and 55k. They are looking at a 15% raise when negotiating and they should be thinking 100%. We are all obedient fellows.
The definition of regional pilot in my dictionary is "a type of sheep in the form of a human. Quiet and fed with grass." I am a sheep.
If the pilots at Republic and Gojet would have some balls and stop the breach of the "status quo" with first year bonus' you would see some big pay raises quickly. Stop the bonus' and you will all see a huge raise. Not just the bottom 4%. No bonus' No bonus' No bonus' should be the chant to mean that you all deserve a raise. The market rate for a regional captain is 100k+, demand it and you will get it.
It is not just a "status quo" issue. Every airline with a contract has a pay scale. An airline cannot pay a pilot outside of the contract - period. I have heard all the theories that people use to say that the company is free to pay these bonus' and they are all false. The company cannot have a separate pay scale for pilots they want to hire, it would make the contract worthless. Stop the bonus' and you will get real pay increases.
I'm not faulting any new hire pilot for wanting or taking a bonus, you would be crazy for not wanting and taking one. But you would be better making 20k a year more for the next 20 years than just getting that 10k bonus.
If anyone wants to debate me about the legality of these bonus' I would welcome the challenge. We could start a separate thread. Case law, law review articles, anything relevant. (Of course a union is free to agree to the company giving the bonus', but the discussion assumes the union was not that stupid.)
I know my post exceeds the 140 characters so it probably went unread by 99% of the readers, but, to sum things up, in this market you are worth double what you are being paid and if you stop the bonus' and let the market rule you will get it.
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