Is the ATP Rule Based on Fact?
02-05-2015, 10:08 PM
#31
Living the Dream
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,795
This is another crucial issue the big wigs just don't get. Yes they can get one particular pilot sooner at 800 or 500 or 300 hours as compared to 1500. But with as much demand as we're seeing (that is only going to increase) the system needs a lot of instructors to actually instruct for at least a year or so. As others have mentioned, there is a building demand already for CFI's and that will likely increase. It is no crisis for either the industry or any individual pilot to get 1000-1200 hours of dual given after they get their ratings. The training infrastructure actually depends on it.
02-06-2015, 03:25 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 142
Gloopy, DeltaJ, I recommend and read the GOA report, also, there's information dedicated on what both of you are discussing. There's no shortage, for now, and if this shortage ever happens, aviation is taking another course, space flight development, UAS, etc.
02-06-2015, 03:37 AM
#33
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Posts: 142
But I do support and even agree with some of the facts brought up here, and back them 100%, recent incidents and accidents are from pilots with prestine backgrounds, Southwest and LGA fiasco, Delta landing on taxiways, USAirways over rotation at PHL, the fact of the matter is, companies are trying to understand aviation and treat it like a regular job/ career, in my opinion. I m in favor of the 1,500 hrs and an enhanced training curricula that could encompass residency type training, like doctors and physicians...Am luck to have that educational background, and it would be a great beginning to rectify some of the gaps that exist today IMHO.
02-06-2015, 04:03 AM
#34
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Posts: 19,606
I understand the reasoning behind the new requirement for Part 121 pilots to hold an ATP ticket, but is it based on any relevant data? In the past 15 years there were times when regionals were hiring low-time pilots in droves, but we have not seen a corresponding increase in Part 121 accidents at the hands of low-time regional pilots.
I've noticed some serious stuff happen with highly expereinced airline pilots:
The Colgan pilots who stalled/crashed in Buffalo were well above the 1500 hour mark. The guys who crashed the ComAir CRJ several years ago were seasoned pilots, with well over 1500 hours on their logbooks. We saw a UPS crew fly a perfectly good Airbus into the ground after they botched a basic instrument approach, and they both had tons of experience. A Southwest Captain flew a jet off the runway in New York after grabbing the controls from the F/O on short final...and she was light years beyond being a low-time pilot.
With the previous hiring of so many low-timers at the regionals, why hasn't there been an up-tick in accidents as a result?
I am not defending or slamming the ATP rule, but I am not sure why the rule was implemented given the stats. Am I missing something? All well-reasoned arguments are very welcome! Thanks!
I've noticed some serious stuff happen with highly expereinced airline pilots:
The Colgan pilots who stalled/crashed in Buffalo were well above the 1500 hour mark. The guys who crashed the ComAir CRJ several years ago were seasoned pilots, with well over 1500 hours on their logbooks. We saw a UPS crew fly a perfectly good Airbus into the ground after they botched a basic instrument approach, and they both had tons of experience. A Southwest Captain flew a jet off the runway in New York after grabbing the controls from the F/O on short final...and she was light years beyond being a low-time pilot.
With the previous hiring of so many low-timers at the regionals, why hasn't there been an up-tick in accidents as a result?
I am not defending or slamming the ATP rule, but I am not sure why the rule was implemented given the stats. Am I missing something? All well-reasoned arguments are very welcome! Thanks!
02-06-2015, 05:20 AM
#35
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Seriously? A new hire F/O makes, what, $20K? Are you saying a low-time pilot CFI makes between $40 and $60K? All the CFIs I've ever known were pretty poor.
02-06-2015, 05:47 AM
#36
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The premise of the original post is ignoring one very simple and important point: A pilot who has more experience..... has MORE EXPERIENCE!
A 1500 hour pilot may not necessarily be a BETTER pilot than a 500 hour pilot, but it cannot be argued that the 500 hour pilot has MORE EXPERIENCE. And experience is not something that can be taught.
If a guy or girl is a crappy pilot after 1500 hours of flight EXPERIENCE, he or she was a crappy pilot when he/she had 500 hours. But at least now we'll know that they'll be a crappy pilot with more experience.
A 1500 hour pilot may not necessarily be a BETTER pilot than a 500 hour pilot, but it cannot be argued that the 500 hour pilot has MORE EXPERIENCE. And experience is not something that can be taught.
If a guy or girl is a crappy pilot after 1500 hours of flight EXPERIENCE, he or she was a crappy pilot when he/she had 500 hours. But at least now we'll know that they'll be a crappy pilot with more experience.
02-06-2015, 05:53 AM
#37
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
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No, you can earn 40-50K in just a few years as a flight instructor. Granted, you are working yourself to death generally 6 days/week, but it was easily possible and I knew plenty besides myself too. Of course we start early with the "will fly for food" mentality, so it is often difficult to fight that attitude.
02-06-2015, 05:56 AM
#38
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Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 988
The premise of the original post is ignoring one very simple and important point: A pilot who has more experience..... has MORE EXPERIENCE!
A 1500 hour pilot may not necessarily be a BETTER pilot than a 500 hour pilot, but it cannot be argued that the 500 hour pilot has MORE EXPERIENCE. And experience is not something that can be taught.
A 1500 hour pilot may not necessarily be a BETTER pilot than a 500 hour pilot, but it cannot be argued that the 500 hour pilot has MORE EXPERIENCE. And experience is not something that can be taught.
02-06-2015, 06:33 AM
#39
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When I was a CFI, I dragged my feet on applying to the regionals because I was looking at more than a 50% pay cut. I ended up joining the Air Force and took a pay cut there as a 2LT.
On the original topic, glad to see the overwhelming support for more experience being better. A solid background in stick and rudder skills is what one counts on when things go bad and hand flying the airplane in non normal situations. This is what is wrong with the Asian/European/Middle East process of training. It's why I would not put my family on an Aisian carrier or M.E. Carrier.
Last edited by PRS Guitars; 02-06-2015 at 06:48 AM. Reason: Added content
02-06-2015, 07:01 AM
#40
MK Ultra Candidate
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: Prime Leader of Boko Harumph
Posts: 1,167
Rely on external forces, ie, shortage vs doing the heavy lifting of raising wages the old fashioned way. The pandemic of "do whatever it takes to get there, so I can gain seniority" is the problem. Newsflash, if the pay isn't good enough, don't take the job.
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