Paid2fly

You sure have a lot to say for a new guy... There used to be a lot of career regionals that had great pay and benefits with lots of very senior pilots. Management, along with guys(like you) who didn't care about the profession and were willing to work for less helped to keep allowing lower and lower contracts instead of allowing improvements and better career opportunities. Do a little research on how things used to be at Golden West, Air Wisconsin(pay rates on their Bae 146 were well into 6 figures several decades ago) etc.
I've said it before, if JO, Hulas, and other bottom feeder management types couldn't get flight crews to work for them, they would have no other choice than to raise pay and benefits.

deltajuliet

I've been following the industry for most of my life, so I have a few things to contribute. I do it productively, courteously, and professionally. I also ask lots of questions, keep an open mind, and appreciate others' explanations and input. And on occasion, yes, I feel compelled to say a few words.

I do care about this profession. That's why I got my ratings, went to college, and then worked my butt off as an instructor 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week for 2 years. I promise you it wasn't for fun. Then I came to Mesa because I already lived in Phoenix, have a significant other here, and roots planted.

If you would be interested in telling me about older contracts and how things used to be with some carriers, I'd be happy to listen. In fact, I once did a report about AWAC's Bae-146's. I remember flying on one when I was younger and thinking it felt incredibly spacious, only to find out later it actually was because of scope clauses. Besides for Air Wisconsin, you almost never saw them stateside.

Unfortunately, those contracts aren't the standard today. Yet, respectfully, I'd put forth an argument that Mesa is competitive for wages when sooner Captain pay is considered. Not to mention the benefits of turbine PIC.

This debate epitomizes the eternal dichotomy of the Regional forum. A few individuals might change their mind here and there, but ultimately we go round and round in circles arguing this. I think it's silly because we're all on a B-scale relative to the majors, and it's like arguing about who's less poor. Contracts may have been different long ago, but the industry as it is now is the hand I was dealt. If I had the power to singlehandedly fix the regional industry or the Israel-Palestine conflict or starvation in Africa I would be more than happy to. But I don't, so I'm playing the cruddy hand that a century of politics, economics, pilots, and management have dealt me the best I can. I wish no misfortune on any other pilot, but it's important to have a sense of pragmatism in this world.

Name User

That is so far beyond reality I don't even know where to start.

Contract 2001 was the best contract AWAC had ever seen. In it, 146 rates topped out after 18 years at $135/hr if you include the steps that were to happen. However, the pay never got there because in 2003 concessions were taken.

AWAC was a good company and rates were higher than most (which were paying peanuts back then, in the mid-teens) but it WAS not what you are making it out to be.

CptGSXR

Alright, guys. Easy way to end this. Look at AA and what their last contract offer was for Envoy or look at any of the crap rates management wants for new 175 flying at the smaller regionals.

I'd like to say that Envoy EJ and RAH all did the regional pilots a service by voting No to those horrible TAs. But lets not kid ourselves, it just means someone else will lowball the industry to fly big jets. These concessions will just keep pilots poor and out of the Majors longer as it means less overall flying and therefore less overall staffing.

So it really doesn't matter what a bunch of people say on a message board, the current facts dictate the pay and QoL at the regional level, meaning even if you made a compelling argument that regional management 'could' offer a better contract to it's pilot group, they still 'wont' because they know it's the only way into the industry. And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is why being stuck at the regionals makes their entire argument a lie. It's not a stepping stone if there is no second step up to take.

copycopy

Yup, and currently all eyes are on PDT

Kprc1

All these posts are lies!!!
It's all about GREED!!!
Greedy CEO's, COO's, Presidents, Executives and pilots at the top of all the major and regional airlines. There is nothing left at the bottom for someone trying to enter the industry.
Let us also not forget the unions and the pilot contributions. Here's an example, the top 25,000 pilots contribute a minimum of 100 million dollars annually to ALPA.
No one cares what a 1st year FO makes at a regional. It's only the pilots who have made a decision to be a lifer at a regional who care. They are addicted to their QOL, base and pay. They stand at the top and say it's the pilots at the bottom to blame. The pilots who are entering this business are excited, eager, and more qualified than before.
I agree with DeltaJuliet. End world hunger, peace for Israel/Palestine and will the coyote ever catch the roadrunner? There will never be balance and fairness in this industry. CA's making 250K per year complain about not making enough and working too much. Same complaint as regional FO's.

Packrat

Exactly right. There are 146k+ ATPs in the U.S. How many major airline jobs are there? 10k at DAL, 8k at SWA, 10k at AA, 9k at UA and 1.5k at AS. Face it boys, not everybody is going to get on with the majors. That means a lot of you are going to spend your career slogging along in an RJ or an ACMI carrier.

You need to make sure your MEC NC is getting the best deal for you. You may be stuck with it until you retire.

Kprc1

Of the 146K+ ATP's how many are actually airline pilots? How many have dreams of being with a major? How many of those are still even flying?
Just because you have an ATP doesn't mean you want a job with a major. You can't use that number for anything other than it is. Just a number.

deltajuliet

For anyone interested, I came across a surprisingly coherent, rational, and friendly thread (at least the first half) regarding the alleged pilot shortage: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...tage-well.html

Of particular interest was this study on the shortage, one of the most comprehensive I've seen. It paints a fact-based picture that if you want to get to a major, you should statistically be able to. For your consideration:

http://www.northshore.edu/cms/file/a...bor-supply.pdf

Mesabah

A very large amount of those 150K atp's, can't hold a first class medical. There are no where near the amount of pilots sitting on the sidelines as reported. Delta has around 15K apps, almost all of them, are current regional and military pilots. There is no one applying that is sitting on the sidelines for the big money jobs.