NineGturn

I have to say....as a long time observer and recently taking a special interest again in the US regional airline industry.

In reference to Bryan Bedford and Jonathan Ornstein recently blaming pilots for the low pay and problems their businesses are facing.

Bedford and "JO" may actually have a point... although for the wrong reasons.

I've been a union pilot many years and I'm convinced that while the unions have a place and serve an important purpose they haven't done regional pilots an real favors in the long run.

The airline pilot profession seems to be unique when compared to professional positions anywhere in the free world (and even the non free world for that matter). Highly skilled and and trained professionals who work under difficult and inconsistent conditions for inconsistent and often extremely low wages. It's really bizarre if you were to step back and look at it from a larger context.

It seems to me that the union system and especially the seniority system that is unique to this profession is the root cause of the problem. Without either of those pilot professionals would progress based on individual credibility, experience and a host of other factors. And yes....maybe even on ass kissing skills which is true in every other profession.

The usual excuse that we need such protections to prevent abuse such as unsafe scheduling, forcing pilots to fly unsafe airplanes, etc is total BS. Clearly such practices are rampant anyway. Pilots just have to be professional and know when to say no...corporate and charter flight departments work very well like this.

Just saying.... I know this opens up a huge can of worms but as the saying goes....what's the definition of insanity?

We are operating on a system that was designed to work in an era where airlines lasted forever and career progression was much more even and steady. The current system only works for a very small percentage of pilots and unfortunately, they're the ones with all the control.

As I see it...guys like JO and Bedford are the biggest winners from the current system of unions and seniority and they know it.

Just imagine if they actually had to follow the rules of supply and demand in real time. And just imagine if 100K plus left seat jobs were available at other airlines? Seniority is a prison and management holds the keys.

bedrock

I admit, I am very ambivalent on this subject. You have to ask, however, why did pilot unions form in the first place?

ALPA and the regional pilot group are at odd with one another, so i agree, ALPA has hindered not helped regional pilots. They urged signing of poor contracts to keep mainline costs low in order to ensure a bigger slice of the pie for ALPA mainline pilots.

Why did JetBlue opt for ALPA. They were non-union under Neeleman and were happy w/ that. Since then, the other CEOs at JB have followed the typical path of being penny wise and pound foolish--and expecting the pilots to compensate for their mgmt. mistakes. I have a good friend at JB who was very suspicious of ALPA, but in the end, even he favored them coming to JB.

So, in conclusion, at the regional level ALPA has not been very helpful. In fact, they have been damaging by endorsing and selling poor contracts. Alsoi, it was action taken by a very courageous pilot at XJT, that gave the push to Known Crewmember; not ALPA, who later took credit.

JamesNoBrakes

The union is ineffective because it has no real teeth, the RLA and bankruptcy laws let the airlines (stockholders) do what they want when it comes to push and shove. It would take pilots doing the types of things that got unions started in the first place (turn of the century) to give the power back to the unions to any extent, but most pilots are unwilling to make a sacrifice for the betterment of the industry and those that will come after them. Is the lack of action and taking a stand at all related to the number of days off pilots enjoy? Dangling that "legacy airline" carrot and the "do your time and get out" ideology has been one of the greatest actions by the airlines and management. Once you've marginalized the job, it's easy to make people take concessions. Oh, this is just a stepping stone to a 135, oh, this is just a stepping stone to a regional 121, oh, this is just a stepping stone to a national, oh, this is just a stepping stone to a major, oh, this is just a stepping stone to FedEx/UPS, oh, this is just a stepping stone to boeing delivery pilot, oh, this is just a stepping stone to AF1, oh, this is just a stepping stone to the Space Shuttle...and on and on.

rcfd13

I'm not sure if I agree about the unions but seniority definitely causes problems. In most professions if you're unhappy with your employer or wages you can take your 10 years of work experience and go start over at another company for the same or better pay than you were getting before. The seniority system determining pay causes people to be forced to stay a companies they don't like taking pay cuts because they can't afford to start over at 20k/year.

It would be a different industry if a 10 year captain could leave and start over on 10 year captain pay at a better carrier. That would likely end the race to the bottom because everyone would continually leave the bottom companies.

NineGturn

I have to admit I expected angry words (maybe yet to come)....

Yes, I think the unions have a place and can be a useful tool. There is absolutely no reason unions can't exist without a seniority system.

The fact is, there are a lot of experienced professional pilots out there who have no interest in working for the airline industry again because they don't want to start all over from the beginning. There are also many (probably most actually) experienced working captains who are dissatisfied with their current position but stay for the exact same reasons as above.

Management knows this....they have no incentive to improve working conditions for their senior crews, they only have to make it better than entry level at the competition. Thus my "prison" analogy of the seniority system.

I hear so many people whining about entry level wages at regional....but honestly, a new pilot fresh out of flight school really doesn't warrant more than intern pay for the at least the first year or so. On the other hand, if an airline hires a high time pilot they have no option but to pay them the same salary.

The solution isn't to raise the minimum pay for entry level pilots, it's to allow non entry level pilots to find and apply for non entry level positions at non entry level pay.

Flyhayes

Which airlines are hiring pilots fresh out of flight school? I think I'd like to avoid flying on those airlines at all cost.
Most pilots I know came up through the flight instruction route. I.e. they were already out of flight school busting their butts at an interns pay.

I don't know of any other highly specialized profession that offers such paltry entry level wages. Perhaps you could name a few?

rcfd13

Regionals are entry level? I was a flight instructor for 4 years at entry level wages. It took me about 4 years of instructing after already going through 4 years of flight school and earning a bachelors degree to build enough time to get hired by my first airline. By the time I got hired by the regionals I had worked my way up a bit in salary and was making 30k as an instructor. I took a pay cut down to 19k first year at the regionals, then 2nd year I broke even and made the 30k that I was making previously as an instructor.

Time building jobs are entry level. Regional jobs aren't exactly entry level when it takes 2-4 years of training (plus a degree usually) then another 2-4 years of building work experience.

NineGturn

Let me quote myself so the above two posters understand what I meant....

Things I did not say or insinuate...

Yes...that's exactly the point I was making. Regionals are not and should not be entry level...thankfully due to recent regulation they may no longer actually hire people fresh out of flight school but they did for many years...not everyone...but some. Everyone, however, started at the same low salary.

Also, working as an instructor in light pistons is a great way to earn experience and skills needed to become an airline pilot, but it doesn't make you an experienced airline pilot...you still aren't competitive to earn a higher salary in most cases and it's not unreasonable for you to be "entry level" (your job, not the airline) as a new jet pilot in the airlines. On the other hand, a pilot who has years of experience flying a small businees jet is actually far more competitive and should be able to demand a higher starting salary since his or her skills are higher.

Do you know any medical profession interns who became doctors? Many professions start out with very low pay to gain experience in the chosen field. The difference is they don't have to start all over again at intern pay when they change companies.

There are exceptions based on supply and demand....software engineers and other engineers can often get high pay right out of college with a four year degree due to the high demand in their professions...I'd really like to see that in the airline industry of course.

IFLYACRJ

The low pay and substandard work rules are in part by those willing to work under those conditions. Back in the 90's, it was pay for training. When pilots took a stand and didn't apply for those jobs, pay for training went away.
The problem with the pilot profession is there were way too many people who would literally fly for free. I even knew one pilot who would do unethical and immoral acts to build that precious multi time. (Won't post what it was on a public forum. But I'm sure some can figure it out)
Post 9/11, pilots went running scared being afraid they'd lose their jobs and took major concessions. And for what? The industry bounced back within months. But the race to the bottom intensified.
Back on topic, pilots are finally taking a stand. Look at GLA. They went from having a glut of resumes down to being on the brink of shutting down because they can't get anyone to come work for them. And now, the regionals are hiring but what about the quality of pilot they're hiring? Would some of these pilots gotten hired 10 years ago? Fewer pilots want to work for regionals because as an FO, it's damn near impossible to survive on the pay.
We sold ourselves short in the past.
ALPA? Can't blame ALPA 100%. Although they have a part in this. By signing off on CBAs that vary and pay rates that vary for flying the same equipment is pitting one ALPA group against another.
What we're seeing here is that the demand has out reached the supply and there's no longer a glut of pilots who are willing to work for nothing to hopefully one day reach a major or legacy.
Times have changed. No more can $52K/yr support a family of four comfortably.
What's going to happen is either they will have to conform to change or they may not survive.
This profession, like any other has its ups and downs. It's how one approaches it and makes of it in my opinion.
At the count of 3, this rant will be over

NineGturn

I don't know if that's a fair statement. I'm sure most of them are very good quality human beings. Yes there are rumors that some people are getting through with spotty records but that doesn't mean the quality of pilots in general is less. I've been in this business for thirty years and there have always been crappy people who shouldn't have been hired and some dark horses who turned out to be great employees. Frankly the airline screening processes is far more limited than the airlines like to believe anyway so they may as well just roll the dice.

This is true but I think the demand and lure of fast upgrades will negate much of that in the short term. Look at Mesa.

Anyway....it's getting a bit off topic here.
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The seniority system backed by the unions is what created the regional airline industry in the US in the first place. Without it, the mainlines would never have been able to outsource their flying to cheap labor.

Major airlines don't need high time experienced jet captains to sit right seat in an Airbus or Boeing. They should be able to hire low time first officers just like regionals.

If an experienced captain can transition from a 737 to a A320 or an MD80 to a 757 there is no reason an experienced captain can't transition from a CRJ or EMB to a 737 or A320 without having to spend ten years in the right seat again first.

Pay should be commensurate with seat and responsibility which should go hand in hand with experience, not based so much on the size of the equipment. I understand the economies of it but if you can't make a profit on a regional jet paying the crew only slightly less than a 737 or A320 then maybe that equipment is just no longer economically viable.

The fact is regional airlines seat mile costs are absolutely economically viable for certain shorter route segments and those aircraft are becoming more efficient (and larger) all the time. It's not the size of the aircraft that is demanding the low pay, it's the regional airline business model and the fact that so many pilots are trapped in these jobs by a seniority system.

Also, the term "regional airline" is obsolete in my opinion. It's just something we use. A better term would be "outsourced airlines."