tom11011

I'll agree with your original posting that there would certainly be benefits to being able to leave one airline and go to another airline for the same or greater pay, but how would you deal with the inevitable furlough? Because of the seniority system in place, the airline is forced to furlough in reverse seniority order. That alone is a major benefit in favor of the pilot.

tom11011

Well said. I think one of the biggest problems is ALPA simply doesn't directly represent the interests of Regional Airline Pilots. They represent Regional Airline Pilots by proxy- ie we are doing whats best for you once you make it here to the big leagues.

I ran a poll the other day to find out how many Regional Airline Pilots even knew that Lee Moak was testifying on Capital Hill. Only 14% knew.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/re...ne-pilots.html

Mangretay

Just read the entire thread. OP makes a dynamic point and articulates it well. What pilot, at some point in his/her career, hasn't felt "trapped" by the seniority system? Sincere congrats those at the top of their seniority lists. For the rest of us, the fate of our careers have many, many masters.

Interesting to see, as the OP "stirs the pot", how entrenched the status quo is within the airline industry. Before you rushed to your keyboard to defend the seniority system, did you even take a moment to consider the OP's alternative concept? I'll skip the compensation aspect, as has been discussed thoroughly. A position attained merely through date-of-hire hardly seems "earned". One only has to babysit a poorly-performing, yet "senior", pilot through a miserable pairing to come face-to-face with the inadequacies of "date-of-hire reigns supreme". That same position earned through aptitude, character, experience, and cultural "fit", I have found, is far more rewarding and gratifying. But then again, I'd characterize myself as one of those rugged individualists.

A bit off-topic, but worth saying: It's sad to see regional airline pilots marginalized and scorned for their lot within the industry, especially considering the vast majority are 1) consummate professionals, and 2) trying to extricate themselves from the regionals by moving up. Again, sincere congrats if your career path was F-4 to 757. Life is what it is, and we all experience varying degrees of difficulty to get where we desire to go. But try to understand the perspective of a pilot joining the aviation industry post-9/11. At the very least, spare them your disdain.

formercrjdriver

Apologies, I know this is a little off-topic. You know, I've heard guys say "I wouldn't want to put my family on a plane with a 250-hour pilot. Would you rather put them on a plane with a 1,500-hour pilot that isn't 110% focused on what he's doing because he's worrying about how to pay rent and provide food for his kids, and either slept in the crew room the night before because he couldn't afford a hotel room, or didn't get a good night's sleep because $20,000/year provides for the worst slum whatever city they're living in has to offer? I don't know if a national seniority list would be beneficial, but for just as many FOs that have to be babysat, there's a captain that has to be babysat as well. There are two of us up there for a reason. Lousy pay and "I get to upgrade first because I was in the right place at the right time" is inexcusable, in my opinion. And for all the mainline guys who think they're better than us, "you have to go through it because I had to go through it" is not an answer. No, nobody surprised me with how little money I'd be making, but what I'm saying is we deserve more.

NineGturn

I appreciate the compliment and I appreciate your thoughtfully written additional points.

It seems when I discuss this the defenders of the seniority system assume I'm only interested in taking their jobs or that I have succeeded without the seniority system. I've worked under many different environments including APLA airlines. I speak from experience, not from envy. I really don't want your job.

I'm going to get a bit off my own topic here but...

I just happened to look at the front page of the RAA website just now and am shocked at what I see. It's nothing new but it's just so blatant.

I had over 2000 hours (with over 500 multi PIC) when I first got hired at a regional to fly right seat in a 19 seater (many years ago) and that experience was typical to get the job back then. The airlines didn't hire 500 hour pilots back then and wouldn't even consider it (apart from United's infamous limited internship program). Starting pay was still low but upgrades were quick. The regionals or "commuters" made up a much smaller percentage of available jobs and truly were stepping stones.

Back then the airlines flew DC-9-10 and Fokker-100 at the low end and the regionals flew ATRs at the high end. The trend continued from there to what it is today.

The RAA's argument that the new minimum experience rules are destroying their ability to do business may be true but it's exactly why we needed those regs in the first place. In the past the airlines self regulated and didn't consider reaching that far down the experience ladder to find pilots. They were self regulated and so there was no need for new regulation.

The reason why they have a shortage now is because those "regionals" make up a significantly higher percentage of employed pilots (statistics anyone?) The problem isn't that the pool of available pilots has changed so drastically, it's that the "regionals" are so much bigger now relative to the total size of the industry that they can't hire that many entry level pilots with a reasonable amount of minimum experience.

If you look at available jobs these days you will notice that pretty much all are low end "entry level" to fly a large jet....It's absolutely ridiculous. The law of supply and demand and free market economics says that by nature those jobs are no longer "entry level" which is why the airlines can't find enough people.

The fact of today's numbers is that there simply are no longer enough jobs in major airlines to accommodate the huge number of "regional" pilots so the job is no longer just a stepping stone.

In my thread here I've never felt that airlines need to raise the entry level pay for first officers...what they need to do is stop differentiating themselves as "regional" airlines who's pilots never deserve the respect, pay, and working conditions of the majors. There simply aren't enough jobs in the majors to go around and staying as a regional captain must be a reward in of itself deserving of the same level of professional respect and dignity of a major airline captain.

If the majors hired entry level first officers and paid them lower wages the pilots would go....they (the majors) don't not because of some self imposed safety morality...they don't because they don't have to. Conditions at the "regionals" even for captains, are so bad that most captains will take a huge pay cut just to move on. My point in this thread is that it's kind of a ridiculous notion and it's due entirely to our structured labor system known as the seniority list.

Without a seniority system you wouldn't see a sudden increase in starting FO pay...that's not what my argument is about. You would see a more even pay scale across all airlines...you would also see higher top level salaries at all airlines, especially regionals. FOs would most likely stay in one or two airplanes before upgrading and then once a captain they would likely remain a captain the rest of their career. It's ridiculous to think you need jet PIC experience to be a good first officer on a larger jet. This notion may have worked in the turboprop regional era but it doesn't anymore.

Now people keep coming back to the point that the regionals can't afford such pay because of the constraints of the code share contract agreements but that's also my point....the "regionals" exist in their current form as a direct result of the seniority system so if it went away this current model wouldn't even work....the majors would just operate a smaller number of regional jets either directly or not at all. "Regional" airlines may still exist but they would be scaled back. In other words, the beast would die!

And to all my fellow pilots who've made it big in this industry and are sitting in the cockpit of a heavy or anything that places a fatter wallet under your ass...when you see an experience regional jet captain come in to your cockpit and talk to you or ask for a ride...treat him with the respect of any other airline captain...not as some lower life form who wishes he could sit behind you with awe and watch you work. Change in the industry will only come from us with a change in attitude.

Mangretay

Further, imagine if respect and pay were commensurate with the complexity of the operation and the difficulty of the type of aircraft flown. For example, single leg/large automated aircraft/single precision approach versus 5-leg/smaller, less-automated turboprop/multiple precision and non-precision approaches. Both examples require extensive experience, but the latter requires higher endurance while maintaining sharpness. The latter is more difficult, and would command higher compensation.

I believe the OP's point is that none of the above comes into play with the current system. We just "get in line", working harder in smaller aircraft for less pay in the hopes that "the line" ends with working less in larger aircraft with more pay.

For someone like myself, who enjoys challenging flying (and, at the moment, is particularly accustomed to it), the thought of getting a large paycheck commensurate with successfully operating in challenging environments is immensely appealing. A pipe dream at this point, as the industry (in the US, anyway) is firmly gripped by the seniority system, but fun to think about...

NineGturn

Surprisingly, it would probably actually happen in a totally free job market. The fact is...just because there's no seniority system wouldn't change the inherent desirability the larger more sophisticated equipment offers to pilots. Therefore those jobs would be more sought after not because of the pay rather than the simple desire to fly them and not do as many takeoffs and landings. Less desirable aircraft may as a result pay more....in the end I think it would balance out that a captain is a captain and pay would be more even across the entire profession being more dependent on experience and qualifications rather than equipment...that bar being set by the employer who needs or demands a certain standard to fill seats.


My intention here isn't to make the seniority system magically go away with this thread and then sit back to see what happens (which would be ultimately interesting), but to encourage open discussion among pilots toward thinking about things differently and to see beyond the status quo and understand why things are the way they are....

Currently there is so much finger pointing and in my opinion most pilots are completely missing the larger picture.

NineGturn

Here's another thought...and it's happened before. My question is mostly aimed at current regional pilots. This idea may spark more controversy....but it's related to the topic.

How would you feel if your regional airline decided, in an effort to deal with the hiring and staffing difficulties, hired captains off the street directly into the left seat? This has happened before.

The initial reactions by the existing pilots is usually negative, even by those who are low time and can't even qualify for an upgrade anyway. But it may not actually slow opportunities for upgrade...here's why...

If an airline suddenly gets a new type that everyone wants to fly....for example, several airlines are getting E-jets and need to staff them... that airline would normally take captains from the other types and transition them, first officers are typically not allowed to or discouraged from transition and the airline hires the new FOs off the street (at the same starting pay as the smaller equipment).

The problem is now that airline needs to train several pilots for each seat that it fills on the new jet (replacing the seats lost in their other equipment). It is also facing the difficult task of finding enough entry level pilots to work as first officers for entry level pay. If that airline were to offer captain jobs off the street in the new jet they would suddenly have a whole new pool of pilots to recruit from...experienced captain qualified pilots who otherwise wouldn't come to work there. They also wouldn't have to transition the current captain from the other jet (although they would have to match the pay to prevent that captain from jumping ship to another airline doing the same thing). It's unlikely that current captains, dissattisfied with being bypassed to transition to the "shiny new jet" would jump ship to go to airline B who is doing the same thing simply because they wouldn't take the pay cut. While first year captain pay is much higher than first year FO pay, it wouldn't be close enough to five year captain pay to cause pilots to jump from a similar airline.

Existing and experienced first officers currently employed (for which there are likely many right now but that pool will dry up at the regionals very quickly) would also be upgraded but generally in their current type so training costs would be cheaper.

Such a scenario would happen only if the airline was unable to meet the demand for pilots from internal upgrades while still being able to schedule enough training and simulator time to meet the total training demands while concurrently leaving enough pilots on the line to cover the flying....an extremely difficult and expensive task for the airline especially under current conditions of growth and attrition.

If the airline couldn't meet the above demands (a scenario that is already beginning to play out among many regionals) the alternative would be to park airplanes, thus further slowing growth and opportunities to upgrade. In other words....you can't upgrade and transition any faster anyway so the current pilots really wouldn't be getting left behind.

Hiring captains off the street allows the airline to meet it's demand for growth and training while maintaining operations and attracting more qualified applicants who otherwise wouldn't go and work there. This is good not only for the airline but for the pilots who really wouldn't advance any slower but their airline would grow faster and healthier and have a higher average established experience base.

The advantage for existing pilots who later upgrade or transition would be that the seniority system would allow them to bid past the captains hired after them and avoid reserve lines altogether when they upgrade (assuming they are in the same type/domicile). They would work for a larger and healthier airline that has saved significant training costs.

This would be a variation of the seniority system that kept seniority in place for bidding schedules and vacation but bypassed it under certain conditions for hiring. Contracts generally forbid such practices but in the end it may serve more to hurt your airline and your job security.

Lambourne

Tony, many of those 767 captains you are referring to came to the mainline from flying twin otters, f-27's and 402's. Unlike the Barbie jets of today those were airplanes the guys flew 8 legs a day in with no AP or magenta line.

Once at the mainline they flew B727's and B737-200's with CWS AP's and definitely no FMC or autothrotlles. I wonder how you would do in such an environment? Isn't the stanadard RJ day engage the AP the lowest Alt allowed and disengage at lowest on the way back down?

I am sorry for the "issues" you have. You may want to seek help before an interview as your personality is going to get revealed in the questioning. Get some paid interview coaching and hope for the best.

Captain Tony

Another swing and a miss. You assume I have only flown an RJ. Get back to your newspaper Pops. Have another double bacon cheeseburger.