These CEOs may have a point
05-17-2014, 11:03 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B777 Capt
Posts: 844
Gotta raise a major BS flag on this one. Legacy airline pilots, long, long ago, set up the current system whereas they were unwilling to fly/and or were willing to sell out the bottom end of their scope clauses for a couple shekels back in the 80's. Most regional pilots weren't even born when the graybeards retiring now set in motion what, at the time, was just a couple beat up operators of Navajos and B-99's; not the E - somethings or other now wearing Delta colors. 
In all seriousness why did you get into this industry? There have never been any guarantees. It's all a wave. I know guys that were F/E's almost their entire career and guys a few months senior to then that had better careers. Even now we have twice furloughed pilots at UA that have had diametrically opposite careers from guys hired one year before them.
Perhaps it is just the entitlement mentality of the regional pilots on this forum that rises to the top. You guys all salivated over getting the scope jets and quick upgrades until you figured out it's not where you want to make a career. Now you want the mainline contracts to go with the flying.
05-17-2014, 11:35 AM
#52
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: 7th green
Posts: 4,378
I put up with 5 solid years of a B-scale. Did I like it? No. But it was a condition of employment, so I accepted it. Was I happy for the new guys when it went away. Of course.
However, pilots are notoriously SJS infected prostitutes. They'll do anything, go anywhere chasing that widebody dream that, unless you're in the top 5%, never comes true.
And lack of character? I think my 11.5 years of active duty and reserve retirement speak more about by character than the fact that you've never seen the inside of a recruiting office.
Your posts remind me of nothing more than a whining, entitlement generation puppy who was brought up in a world of instant gratification. Hate to burst your bubble, but in the airlines, you have to work/earn your way up the pyramid. You've just translated the selfish arguments of the anti-Age 65 crowd to rationalize poor RJ F/O pay.
Again, if you don't like the pay scale, don't let the door hit you on the way out. The airlines know the supply of pilots chasing the Major Airline dream far exceeds the number of seats. When those numbers flip flop the pay will increase.
What is it about Supply and Demand that mystifies you?
05-17-2014, 11:54 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,425
Packrat I'm still mystified what you are advocating for.
Congrats on your service. My father was a Lt Col, Air Force, 22 years. I didn't have the eyes to pass the medical, would've loved to fly.
But just like the seats at the majors, there is a very limited amount of opportunity to go that route as well.
Guys are doing what they have to, to get ahead and move up. Going to a commuter is the best route out there.
I would love to see the justification for making the commuter pay scale a 15-18 year long event (but majors are 12), and how F/O's make significantly less than the 60% they make at the majors as standard compensation levels go. Quite frankly there is none. It was a grab by the senior guys.
My former negotiating committee was all CAs. I would think most at the commuter level are, but I have no facts to back that up. I don't hold a grudge against them, far from it. But I disagree with the mentality of low pay to start followed by high pay at the end. I would prefer a UPS style system, everyone makes the same. I wonder why they are the only ones that do it. In fact there is a lot the rest of the industry could learn from the pilot group there. The last raise they got went mostly to F/Os, it was very admirable.
Congrats on your service. My father was a Lt Col, Air Force, 22 years. I didn't have the eyes to pass the medical, would've loved to fly.
But just like the seats at the majors, there is a very limited amount of opportunity to go that route as well.
Guys are doing what they have to, to get ahead and move up. Going to a commuter is the best route out there.
I would love to see the justification for making the commuter pay scale a 15-18 year long event (but majors are 12), and how F/O's make significantly less than the 60% they make at the majors as standard compensation levels go. Quite frankly there is none. It was a grab by the senior guys.
My former negotiating committee was all CAs. I would think most at the commuter level are, but I have no facts to back that up. I don't hold a grudge against them, far from it. But I disagree with the mentality of low pay to start followed by high pay at the end. I would prefer a UPS style system, everyone makes the same. I wonder why they are the only ones that do it. In fact there is a lot the rest of the industry could learn from the pilot group there. The last raise they got went mostly to F/Os, it was very admirable.
Last edited by fosters; 05-17-2014 at 12:24 PM.
05-17-2014, 11:56 AM
#54
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: MD-11 CPT
Posts: 76
I have to say....as a long time observer and recently taking a special interest again in the US regional airline industry.
In reference to Bryan Bedford and Jonathan Ornstein recently blaming pilots for the low pay and problems their businesses are facing.
Bedford and "JO" may actually have a point... although for the wrong reasons.
I've been a union pilot many years and I'm convinced that while the unions have a place and serve an important purpose they haven't done regional pilots an real favors in the long run.
The airline pilot profession seems to be unique when compared to professional positions anywhere in the free world (and even the non free world for that matter). Highly skilled and and trained professionals who work under difficult and inconsistent conditions for inconsistent and often extremely low wages. It's really bizarre if you were to step back and look at it from a larger context.
It seems to me that the union system and especially the seniority system that is unique to this profession is the root cause of the problem. Without either of those pilot professionals would progress based on individual credibility, experience and a host of other factors. And yes....maybe even on ass kissing skills which is true in every other profession.
The usual excuse that we need such protections to prevent abuse such as unsafe scheduling, forcing pilots to fly unsafe airplanes, etc is total BS. Clearly such practices are rampant anyway. Pilots just have to be professional and know when to say no...corporate and charter flight departments work very well like this.
Just saying.... I know this opens up a huge can of worms but as the saying goes....what's the definition of insanity?
We are operating on a system that was designed to work in an era where airlines lasted forever and career progression was much more even and steady. The current system only works for a very small percentage of pilots and unfortunately, they're the ones with all the control.
As I see it...guys like JO and Bedford are the biggest winners from the current system of unions and seniority and they know it.
Just imagine if they actually had to follow the rules of supply and demand in real time. And just imagine if 100K plus left seat jobs were available at other airlines? Seniority is a prison and management holds the keys.
In reference to Bryan Bedford and Jonathan Ornstein recently blaming pilots for the low pay and problems their businesses are facing.
Bedford and "JO" may actually have a point... although for the wrong reasons.
I've been a union pilot many years and I'm convinced that while the unions have a place and serve an important purpose they haven't done regional pilots an real favors in the long run.
The airline pilot profession seems to be unique when compared to professional positions anywhere in the free world (and even the non free world for that matter). Highly skilled and and trained professionals who work under difficult and inconsistent conditions for inconsistent and often extremely low wages. It's really bizarre if you were to step back and look at it from a larger context.
It seems to me that the union system and especially the seniority system that is unique to this profession is the root cause of the problem. Without either of those pilot professionals would progress based on individual credibility, experience and a host of other factors. And yes....maybe even on ass kissing skills which is true in every other profession.
The usual excuse that we need such protections to prevent abuse such as unsafe scheduling, forcing pilots to fly unsafe airplanes, etc is total BS. Clearly such practices are rampant anyway. Pilots just have to be professional and know when to say no...corporate and charter flight departments work very well like this.
Just saying.... I know this opens up a huge can of worms but as the saying goes....what's the definition of insanity?
We are operating on a system that was designed to work in an era where airlines lasted forever and career progression was much more even and steady. The current system only works for a very small percentage of pilots and unfortunately, they're the ones with all the control.
As I see it...guys like JO and Bedford are the biggest winners from the current system of unions and seniority and they know it.
Just imagine if they actually had to follow the rules of supply and demand in real time. And just imagine if 100K plus left seat jobs were available at other airlines? Seniority is a prison and management holds the keys.
05-17-2014, 12:14 PM
#55
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,609
05-17-2014, 12:18 PM
#56
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,609
I can't speak for Women in Aviation (I am not a member), but I'd hardly call AOPA Pilot, which I believe features one pilot a month and does in fact have ads for pilot training companies, to be pushing a professional 121 flying career. If anything, I'd say it pushes being wealthy enough to own and fly your own airplane, because the one I get tends to feature aircraft that start at the Cirrus SR22 and go up from there in number of engines and cost.
05-17-2014, 12:28 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: ERJ, CA
Posts: 718
AOPA has Flight Training Magazine (or used to), which did promote schools training part 141 for the airlines. There were a lot of interviews with pilots at the regionals and occasionally other ailrines. Comair and MESA academy used to have ads there, as well as ATPs.
All of the interviews were overwhelmingly positive.
All of the interviews were overwhelmingly positive.
05-17-2014, 02:00 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 190
Because the 24 year mainline Captain had to go through a much more thorough vetting process that the 24 year RJ pilot couldn't pass. That's why he's a 24 year RJ pilot.
05-17-2014, 02:22 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,518
And my point is that when YOU finally make it to the legacy left seat, you won't see it that way. So, perhaps you shouldn't make general statements like that until you've seen the whole spectrum, not just the view from the right seat of your RJ.
I put up with 5 solid years of a B-scale. Did I like it? No. But it was a condition of employment, so I accepted it. Was I happy for the new guys when it went away. Of course.
Again, its a condition of employment. Its what you have to accept to get where you want to go. Now, if everyone in your shoes would refuse to accept the pay scales, they would rise. Again, simple supply and demand.
However, pilots are notoriously SJS infected prostitutes. They'll do anything, go anywhere chasing that widebody dream that, unless you're in the top 5%, never comes true.
And lack of character? I think my 11.5 years of active duty and reserve retirement speak more about by character than the fact that you've never seen the inside of a recruiting office.
Plenty of Negotiating Committees are staffed by F/Os. Unlike you, they realize the benefits of negotiating for their pilot groups AS A WHOLE and not pitting one group against another. Your contract is designed to maximize the benefits to you over the course of a WHOLE career, not just the time you put in the right seat.
Your posts remind me of nothing more than a whining, entitlement generation puppy who was brought up in a world of instant gratification. Hate to burst your bubble, but in the airlines, you have to work/earn your way up the pyramid. You've just translated the selfish arguments of the anti-Age 65 crowd to rationalize poor RJ F/O pay.
Again, if you don't like the pay scale, don't let the door hit you on the way out. The airlines know the supply of pilots chasing the Major Airline dream far exceeds the number of seats. When those numbers flip flop the pay will increase.
What is it about Supply and Demand that mystifies you?
I put up with 5 solid years of a B-scale. Did I like it? No. But it was a condition of employment, so I accepted it. Was I happy for the new guys when it went away. Of course.
Again, its a condition of employment. Its what you have to accept to get where you want to go. Now, if everyone in your shoes would refuse to accept the pay scales, they would rise. Again, simple supply and demand.
However, pilots are notoriously SJS infected prostitutes. They'll do anything, go anywhere chasing that widebody dream that, unless you're in the top 5%, never comes true.
And lack of character? I think my 11.5 years of active duty and reserve retirement speak more about by character than the fact that you've never seen the inside of a recruiting office.
Plenty of Negotiating Committees are staffed by F/Os. Unlike you, they realize the benefits of negotiating for their pilot groups AS A WHOLE and not pitting one group against another. Your contract is designed to maximize the benefits to you over the course of a WHOLE career, not just the time you put in the right seat.
Your posts remind me of nothing more than a whining, entitlement generation puppy who was brought up in a world of instant gratification. Hate to burst your bubble, but in the airlines, you have to work/earn your way up the pyramid. You've just translated the selfish arguments of the anti-Age 65 crowd to rationalize poor RJ F/O pay.
Again, if you don't like the pay scale, don't let the door hit you on the way out. The airlines know the supply of pilots chasing the Major Airline dream far exceeds the number of seats. When those numbers flip flop the pay will increase.
What is it about Supply and Demand that mystifies you?
Second, this isn't about supply and demand. Many regionals are capped by current contracts with the majors. If Mesa or RAH or TSH were to double their FO wages, they would probably cease to exist in a year. In order for there to be an increase in wages, there has to be a renegotation of FFD contracts to allow for a greater margin at the regional level. Something as simple as "supply and demand" isn't going to solve the problem. The Delta "rate-reset" is a perfect example of how the regionals are just playing the game by the rules of the legacies and with the cards they are dealt.
05-17-2014, 02:27 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,518
Exactly. He failed at getting hired during the last major boom when he was still too inexperienced to get hired at a major. Then he failed to get hired in 2001 during one of the biggest consolidation and pilot furloughing periods of the last 30 years. Then, he failed to get hired 7 years later when the economy tanked and the airlines continued to not hire. Shame on him for not wanting to go to a major when, in the previous 2 decades, all they've done was not pay their pilots to sit at home and take pay cuts ad infinitum
Last edited by CBreezy; 05-17-2014 at 02:38 PM.
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