tom11011

Yes, that was the OP's point when he said the current system is a prison. But even if you could, there's not a whole lot of choices now.

CBreezy

Seeing as how a large majority of pilots are represented by the same union, why can't they come together to provide an experience-based system. I have no problem with seniority being the way it is but think people would be a lot more comfortable if the pay was a lot less of a drop off when changing airlines. Make it based off of years of 121 experience. We are a professional skilled labor group, after all. I don't think a union should be there to protect pilots of specific companies as much as it should be to protect all pilots no matter what company they work for.

A regional Capt with 25 years experience shouldn't go back to the right seat and make $22/hour. He'd have to wait until it his turn to become a Captain again as it only fair to those who have been at the company longer but I don't think anyone should complain if a year 1 FO with 25 years of 121 experience is making $40/hour. Obviously you can pay the Captain and First Officer commiserate with their duties as a Captain SHOULD make more than a First Officer. I just think an industry that prides itself on requiring experience compensate that experience accordingly.

Some ideas I had along those lines:

-For every year of 121 experience, credit + x% toward the tiered pay.

-For every year as a Capt of a crew in 121, credit + y% to the experience credit.

-Maybe even have tiers of experience. I believe engineers or other skilled laborers have levels based on experience.

Comments?

tom11011

Ideally you could have employee trades. If a pilot from company A and a pilot from company B decide to trade jobs, they also exchange their seniority. However there would be expense to the company such as initial training and IOE.

BenS

Knowing what little I know about regionals, I could see unions and companies agreeing to a scale like "1 year of longevity pay for every 4 years of prior 121 experience, seniority starts at date of hire"..

It benefits companies from a recruiting standpoint. It also helps any pilot who must leave a failing airline, and can make a choice to not lose any longevity pay they may have. The problem with negotiating this in is nobody would be willing to make a negotiating sacrifice to include language like this in their contract.

BoilerUP

How much negotiating capital do you all think it would take to get management to agree to this type of "seniority transfer" provision?

What incentive does an airline have to hire somebody with X years of experience at $40/hr, if they can hire X- years of experience at $25/hr to serve in the exact same capacity, with no detriment to safety of flight?

horrido27

We will never have a National Seniority List for numerous reasons..
But if ALPA and the other unions wanted to really solve this problem, the answer is - set payscales for aircraft types.

If an EMB145 pays the same everywhere.. then each regional (and also applies to the majors and LCC's) can supplement the pay with overrides, bonuses, higher Perdiem, better contracts/work rules and better retirement packages.

This would ensure that (aircraft wise), everyone holds the line with regards to pay.
A 175 should pay the same no matter what airline flies it.. but the beenies should be different. Not worried about retirement, go to a company that isn't going to be your career airline. If an airline flies International and has an override for it, cool. Not interested in that type of flying.. don't go there.

But until the Union(s) demand a set pay for set aircraft, undercutting will continue at the RJ level~

Just my opinion..
Motch

PS> That's why there is no pilot shortage.. just a shortage of pilots willing to work for low pay, poor work rules and for companies who may or may not be there in the long run before a Major/LCC calls them.

CBreezy

The problem is, they are struggling to hire now and, in the next decade, will probably continue to struggle to hire. You can't make an argument for safety of flight here because you'd then have to argue to pay all first officers the same regardless of longeviity. The airlines have already expressed interest in paying more for longevity. Why can't we combine that with experience? It's way better than a $12,000 bonus for both sides.

tom11011

This thread is a discussion about ideas, brainstorming if you will. Obviously not all ideas are workable but by allowing the free flow of discussion, every now and then a good idea is able to be developed or built upon. You can choose to poo-poo ideas or add to the discussion. It's all up to you.

NineGturn

Thanks for all the responses and discussion.

A couple things....

I don't think it's reasonable to expect equal pay for equal type simply because not all jobs are equal. Some domiciles have a higher cost of living, some airlines may provide better QOL, etc. Pay should be something that is set by the competition. The problem we have now is that seniority system takes away any competition because you are only competing for the low end entry level co pilot position.

I think management would actually like to hire higher qualified pilots at higher pay but they can't afford and don't need to hire everybody at that level. The problem is management's hands are tied by the seniority system as much as ours are. This has worked well for them in the past but now they can't attract the experienced pilots they need because they're bound by the system they created and we accepted.

Think about this...if a regional airline today is growing and dealing with attrition and needs to hire what amounts to over half their current numbers within one year and every one of those pilots was a brand new low time pilot with no experience...how will they manage upgrades? It's unlikely many of those new hires will be able to qualify as captains within a year and even if they do is it really wise? (This is why we have dumbed down checkrides by eliminating circling approaches and other things from checking) Now you have low time captains and low time FOs flying together again....exactly what the new regulations were trying to prevent.

Not to mention the training costs such a scenario would create.

The solution is to relax our current perception of seniority systems at the regional level and understand that an entry level co pilot with no experience is not entitled to be a jet captain with one to two years.

If the unions allowed the regionals to hire tiered first officers and even direct entry captains they could offer the higher pay to those who demand it and still offer entry level wages to pilots who have no experience. We can all agree that someone, somewhere needs to hire entry level pilots but I think we can also agree those pilots would be better served spending more time as a first officer flying with seasoned captains rather than upgrading within a year.

Currently in our system you are either an FO or a Captain, there is no in between. There is no reason you can't have tiered advancement structures as First Officer that require completion of experience and proficiency. Other countries do this and it works. You must achieve a series of experience and proficiency goals before you upgrade, regardless of seniority. Pay would be based on those ranks and more experienced pilots could be hired at higher ranks based on certified experience at other carriers or jobs.

Seniority would still be used to advance among pilots who are otherwise equal and for scheduling, etc.

Major Airlines who hire mostly high experienced pilots anyway don't need and probably don't want such a system so it would be something the regionals would have to implement.

They would have to get rid of the traditional ALPA "rights" that are copied into contracts from the majors but just don't work as well at regionals. For example, pilots should not be allowed to cross bid equipment except in rare circumstances or only if senior. First Officers should upgrade in the type they fly. This would greatly reduce training costs to offset the higher average salaries paid to experienced and senior pilots.

This would allow a career path for experienced pilots at the regionals as well as keeping with the traditional "training ground" concept for the majors.

This is a rough sketch of the ideas I'm presenting that would need a lot of refinement. The RAA would have to get in on it as a group and the unions would have to back it. In the end I think it would benefit everyone.

BoilerUP

God forbid somebody ask a legitimate question that apparantely nobody had yet considered...