Eagle TA independent view.
03-27-2014, 05:33 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
I'm on my phone so I can't type out a proper response right now, but honest question:
Does PSA have 4 flows per month or 4 interviews? There is a big difference between the two and I honestly don't know the answer.
Either way, they are 4 to the US Airways side. Once the certificate mergers are complete the Eagle TA would still stand: The first 30 new hires at AA would come from Eagle. If AA only hires 30 in a month then all 30 would come from Eagle.
Does PSA have 4 flows per month or 4 interviews? There is a big difference between the two and I honestly don't know the answer.
Either way, they are 4 to the US Airways side. Once the certificate mergers are complete the Eagle TA would still stand: The first 30 new hires at AA would come from Eagle. If AA only hires 30 in a month then all 30 would come from Eagle.
03-27-2014, 05:45 AM
#42
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Left
Posts: 1,809
03-27-2014, 06:25 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,707
the 824 flow amount is an arbitrated decision. you will have to grieve the violation and have it go in your favor first. anything after the 824 is up to AAG to interpret how they want to do it. either case the 824 gives half the seats to the 824 and cannot by company be reduced to less than 20 a month transfer to AA.
03-27-2014, 07:02 AM
#44
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Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 610
“According to more than one source (and they both coincide so I am going to go with the numbers) between the time that the first agreement was reached until the time the MEC voted not to send it out, weekly pilot applications went from 8 per week to 66 per week. Applications then dropped to only about 3 or 4 per week after the MEC voted not to send the deal out. Makes sense.”
No it doesn’t. What makes since is, when you tell everyone you will be shutting down you lose applications, and when you decide to not shutdown applications go back up. Uncertainty, like in the stock market, is worse than any “good” or “bad “deal that will be reached. So obliviously Mgmt’s plan is to create an uncertain environment long enough to make a bad deal look good. I guess if the deal passes all the pilots will need to send you thank you cards, for explaining it to them and saving the company.
No it doesn’t. What makes since is, when you tell everyone you will be shutting down you lose applications, and when you decide to not shutdown applications go back up. Uncertainty, like in the stock market, is worse than any “good” or “bad “deal that will be reached. So obliviously Mgmt’s plan is to create an uncertain environment long enough to make a bad deal look good. I guess if the deal passes all the pilots will need to send you thank you cards, for explaining it to them and saving the company.
Last edited by Waitingformins; 03-27-2014 at 07:13 AM.
03-27-2014, 07:13 AM
#45
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Excerpt taken from PlaneBusiness Banter by Holly Hegeman, Editor
Friday March 21, 2014, Volume 18, Issue 11
Speaking of the regional airline sector, the pilots at American Eagle continue to vote on the tentative agreement proposal the Air Line Pilots Association MEC put out for a vote. The voting period on the TA ends next week, so we will then have an answer as to whether American Airlines will be using American Eagle to fly those sixty new Embraer E-Jets, or whether the flying will be dispersed amongst the list of regionals that bid for the work. As we mentioned previously, that RFP which breaks the flying up into three sets of 20 aircraft each has already gone out for bids.
I want to take a few minutes and talk about this vote, as I think it is one of the most important union votes we've seen in the industry of late. First of all, I would like to say to the leaders of the ALPA MEC who refused to recommend to members of their union how they should vote on this agreement -- shame on you. Abstention is not an option. (Three members voted to recommend the agreement to members, while six members abstained.) The members of your union elected you to represent them. They don't have the same level of access to management discussions and negotiations that you have. They don't have access to the same information on a national ALPA scale as you have. You were elected to represent them in situations just like this.
For a member of the Eagle MEC to stand on the sidelines, pull the political card, and not provide more guidance to members on such an important vote is, well, shameful.
Hope you guys can sleep at night.
Having said that, I want to say a few things about this proposed contract because there is a lot of bad information out there concerning it. I think American Eagle pilots need to vote yes, not no.
1) The number one misperception about this agreement that I have heard over and over again is that Eagle management will come back to ALPA if the union votes down the deal because no other regional will be able to hire pilots to staf the new flying.
If you are an American Eagle pilot and this is why you are going to vote no, you are in for a rude awakening. Is not going to happen. RFPs are out. There are hungry stand-alone regional airlines out there ready to pounce.
They will find the pilots.
2) On the reverse side of the argument, another misperception is that Eagle won't be able to hire anyone. I decided to ask around and see just how the hiring pool looks at American Eagle. Since we've heard mixed messages from other regional airlines of late, (including some mild hysteria) and since it would stand to reason that a job at Eagle, with a flow-through, would be better than a job at a standalone regional, guess what we found out?
According to more than one source (and they both coincide so I am going to go with the numbers) between the time that the first agreement was reached until the time the MEC voted not to send it out, weekly pilot applications went from 8 per week to 66 per week. Applications then dropped to only about 3 or 4 per week after the MEC voted not to send the deal out. Makes sense.
What does this tell you? It tells me that American Eagle with a pilot contract is looked upon as a desirable place for pilots to work.
How are applications looking now? I was told that after the "new" TA was reached, there was yet another spike in applications. Weekly applications are now back in the 50 to 55 per week range. And I am told the overwhelming majority of those applicants are qualified to fly the airplanes that need to be flown.
3) The flow-through agreement. What is the dif erence between what is in place now and what will be in place in the future if the TA passes?
Today, Eagle provides 50% of the monthly new hire class to American. If the class is 40, Eagle supplies 20. Under the new deal, 100% of the first 30 pilots American hires in a month will come from Eagle. That is a significant improvement, especially if American is hiring smaller classes, like 20 per month. Previously, only 10 would have flowed through to American; under the terms of the new contract, it would be all 20.
So if the class is 30, it is all Eagle. If it is 40, 30 are Eagle. Granted, if the new class is 60, only 30 will be Eagle. But that would still be 50% -- the same as the current agreement.
4) As best I can tell, not one pilot takes a paycut as part of this deal.
First Officers below 8 years and Captains below 12 years will still get step increases, Captains in years 15 to 17 will keep getting annual increases, First Officers who are promoted to Captains will get huge pay increases, and Captains who flow through to American will obviously hit the jackpot.
5) This deal guarantees 170 aircraft. The contract between Delta and Endeavor only guarantees 81.
Oh, and another thing I learned this week. While Endeavor pilots do have flow-through rights -- they only have 12 a month. In addition, they have to interview at Delta. Sources tell me that less than half of them are receiving job offers. All of Eagle's flow-through pilots will get an offer because there is no interview.
So why are pilots telling me they are going to vote no? Two main reasons.
1) "The only way to attract pilots is to raise pay and benefits." (See above. Apparently American is not having trouble getting applications.) I'm sure a lot of people would like to see the entire regional/mainline system gutted and changed -- I know I would. But this contract is not going to do that. Nor will this happen if the contract is not approved. But not approving this contract could make the lives of American Eagle pilots much worse. Sorry. Wish I could say otherwise. So if you want to vote no and "stand for the cause" it's not going to end well. As I said, those RFPs are already out there.
2) "Mainline carriers are making record profits. We want more."
Unfortunately, that is not how the broken regional airline model in the U.S. works. Or doesn't work. How it works right now is this: there are regional airlines out there that will bid on these RFPs at rates lower than the costs contained in this TA. That's a fact. A sad fact. It is the model that is broken. Given the constraints of that broken model, I say a "yes" to this contract beats the alternative.
We'll all find out which way the vote goes next week.
Friday March 21, 2014, Volume 18, Issue 11
Speaking of the regional airline sector, the pilots at American Eagle continue to vote on the tentative agreement proposal the Air Line Pilots Association MEC put out for a vote. The voting period on the TA ends next week, so we will then have an answer as to whether American Airlines will be using American Eagle to fly those sixty new Embraer E-Jets, or whether the flying will be dispersed amongst the list of regionals that bid for the work. As we mentioned previously, that RFP which breaks the flying up into three sets of 20 aircraft each has already gone out for bids.
I want to take a few minutes and talk about this vote, as I think it is one of the most important union votes we've seen in the industry of late. First of all, I would like to say to the leaders of the ALPA MEC who refused to recommend to members of their union how they should vote on this agreement -- shame on you. Abstention is not an option. (Three members voted to recommend the agreement to members, while six members abstained.) The members of your union elected you to represent them. They don't have the same level of access to management discussions and negotiations that you have. They don't have access to the same information on a national ALPA scale as you have. You were elected to represent them in situations just like this.
For a member of the Eagle MEC to stand on the sidelines, pull the political card, and not provide more guidance to members on such an important vote is, well, shameful.
Hope you guys can sleep at night.
Having said that, I want to say a few things about this proposed contract because there is a lot of bad information out there concerning it. I think American Eagle pilots need to vote yes, not no.
1) The number one misperception about this agreement that I have heard over and over again is that Eagle management will come back to ALPA if the union votes down the deal because no other regional will be able to hire pilots to staf the new flying.
If you are an American Eagle pilot and this is why you are going to vote no, you are in for a rude awakening. Is not going to happen. RFPs are out. There are hungry stand-alone regional airlines out there ready to pounce.
They will find the pilots.
2) On the reverse side of the argument, another misperception is that Eagle won't be able to hire anyone. I decided to ask around and see just how the hiring pool looks at American Eagle. Since we've heard mixed messages from other regional airlines of late, (including some mild hysteria) and since it would stand to reason that a job at Eagle, with a flow-through, would be better than a job at a standalone regional, guess what we found out?
According to more than one source (and they both coincide so I am going to go with the numbers) between the time that the first agreement was reached until the time the MEC voted not to send it out, weekly pilot applications went from 8 per week to 66 per week. Applications then dropped to only about 3 or 4 per week after the MEC voted not to send the deal out. Makes sense.
What does this tell you? It tells me that American Eagle with a pilot contract is looked upon as a desirable place for pilots to work.
How are applications looking now? I was told that after the "new" TA was reached, there was yet another spike in applications. Weekly applications are now back in the 50 to 55 per week range. And I am told the overwhelming majority of those applicants are qualified to fly the airplanes that need to be flown.
3) The flow-through agreement. What is the dif erence between what is in place now and what will be in place in the future if the TA passes?
Today, Eagle provides 50% of the monthly new hire class to American. If the class is 40, Eagle supplies 20. Under the new deal, 100% of the first 30 pilots American hires in a month will come from Eagle. That is a significant improvement, especially if American is hiring smaller classes, like 20 per month. Previously, only 10 would have flowed through to American; under the terms of the new contract, it would be all 20.
So if the class is 30, it is all Eagle. If it is 40, 30 are Eagle. Granted, if the new class is 60, only 30 will be Eagle. But that would still be 50% -- the same as the current agreement.
4) As best I can tell, not one pilot takes a paycut as part of this deal.
First Officers below 8 years and Captains below 12 years will still get step increases, Captains in years 15 to 17 will keep getting annual increases, First Officers who are promoted to Captains will get huge pay increases, and Captains who flow through to American will obviously hit the jackpot.
5) This deal guarantees 170 aircraft. The contract between Delta and Endeavor only guarantees 81.
Oh, and another thing I learned this week. While Endeavor pilots do have flow-through rights -- they only have 12 a month. In addition, they have to interview at Delta. Sources tell me that less than half of them are receiving job offers. All of Eagle's flow-through pilots will get an offer because there is no interview.
So why are pilots telling me they are going to vote no? Two main reasons.
1) "The only way to attract pilots is to raise pay and benefits." (See above. Apparently American is not having trouble getting applications.) I'm sure a lot of people would like to see the entire regional/mainline system gutted and changed -- I know I would. But this contract is not going to do that. Nor will this happen if the contract is not approved. But not approving this contract could make the lives of American Eagle pilots much worse. Sorry. Wish I could say otherwise. So if you want to vote no and "stand for the cause" it's not going to end well. As I said, those RFPs are already out there.
2) "Mainline carriers are making record profits. We want more."
Unfortunately, that is not how the broken regional airline model in the U.S. works. Or doesn't work. How it works right now is this: there are regional airlines out there that will bid on these RFPs at rates lower than the costs contained in this TA. That's a fact. A sad fact. It is the model that is broken. Given the constraints of that broken model, I say a "yes" to this contract beats the alternative.
We'll all find out which way the vote goes next week.
When was the last time they said you can work for more ?
Massive profits are being made, so that can no longer be the excuse, so something new has to be found. My advice is to ignore this nonsense and reject that what has never given you what you deserve and has not only never changed their philosophy of shaking you down, but actually emboldened it.
03-27-2014, 08:01 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,420
Welcome to AA where they will violate the contract. You will grieve it and 10 yrs later you might win.
What if they send interviews and decide not to hire a single PSA guy? You will be stuck at PSA with your pay frozen.
03-27-2014, 08:15 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,648
Doesn't your language state they can be held til the end of the calendar year? If so that's exactly what they'll do and give class dates when the classes are over 30 new hires.
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