Local 357 officially supports TA!!!
03-09-2014, 06:12 AM
#12
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Posts: 3,543
Sorry pal, but you have it all wrong. Instead of shooting from the hip about things I did not know, I tracked down one of the negotiators and here are the answers he gave me:
Pay increases exceed historical inflation rate by more than 1% per year. F/O pay is just below the average highs among RAH's peer group, and well above the average of that peer group. First year F/O pay is the highest in that peer group and 9th year matches exactly the average high in that peer group. Hourly pay rate increases for F/O range from 11% per year to more than 29%.
There is no "hot reserve." There is long call reserve, short call reserve and airport standby, as contemplated by FAR 117. All three have considerable scheduling and pay protections that don't exist in our current CBA, which are designed to prevent company abuse.
Co-basing can only occur with mutual agreement on the terms, logistics and conditions between the Company and Union on a location by location basis. As of the DOS, there will be no co-bases that have such an agreement, including the example of the New York area listed in the LOA.
While language might appear vague to average pilot, the company and the union reached a large number of understandings of intent regarding such language that is recorded in the agreed upon record of joint bargaining notes between the parties.
Pilots must be contactable by their employer when at work and on duty--ONLY WHEN on duty and NOT when on a layover, in rest or on days-off. However, if reassigned when at work, there are all kinds of pay and scheduling protections, including extra pay for "plus-ups" and overblocking. In exchange, RAH pilots DO NOT continue to NOT have any form of junior manning, which each and every one of our peers has in some form or fashion. Consequently, days off at RAH are, in fact, days off and the abillity to commute home as planned is greatly enhanced.
Hard staffing requirements rarely, if ever, exist in the airline industry. However, new FAR 117 rules, along with the duty and trip rigs will force the company to staff in a more efficient manner.
On a historical basis, premium pay, while reached by a significant number of pilots each month, has never been that valuable a provision. Consequently, the threshold was raised from 85 to 87 in exchange for a number of more valuable provisions.
Company has to first allow captains to bid to fly as F/O. If insufficient number bid, then company can assign captains to fly as F/O in inverse seniority order. In all cases, such captains exercise their seniority against all F/O when bidding monthly schedules--meaning a junior captain can bid and fly a much more desirable line when flying as F/O then he could hold as F/O. Also, in all cases, such captains are paid their full captain pay and benefits for flying as F/O.
The cola increases are in excess of 4.1% in years 2, 3 & 4 of the contract, and in excess of 4.6% on the amendable date, for a compounded increase of 18.17% over the contracts duration. Those percentages are significantly higher than historical inflation or COLA increases
Pay increases exceed historical inflation rate by more than 1% per year. F/O pay is just below the average highs among RAH's peer group, and well above the average of that peer group. First year F/O pay is the highest in that peer group and 9th year matches exactly the average high in that peer group. Hourly pay rate increases for F/O range from 11% per year to more than 29%.
There is no "hot reserve." There is long call reserve, short call reserve and airport standby, as contemplated by FAR 117. All three have considerable scheduling and pay protections that don't exist in our current CBA, which are designed to prevent company abuse.
Co-basing can only occur with mutual agreement on the terms, logistics and conditions between the Company and Union on a location by location basis. As of the DOS, there will be no co-bases that have such an agreement, including the example of the New York area listed in the LOA.
While language might appear vague to average pilot, the company and the union reached a large number of understandings of intent regarding such language that is recorded in the agreed upon record of joint bargaining notes between the parties.
Pilots must be contactable by their employer when at work and on duty--ONLY WHEN on duty and NOT when on a layover, in rest or on days-off. However, if reassigned when at work, there are all kinds of pay and scheduling protections, including extra pay for "plus-ups" and overblocking. In exchange, RAH pilots DO NOT continue to NOT have any form of junior manning, which each and every one of our peers has in some form or fashion. Consequently, days off at RAH are, in fact, days off and the abillity to commute home as planned is greatly enhanced.
Hard staffing requirements rarely, if ever, exist in the airline industry. However, new FAR 117 rules, along with the duty and trip rigs will force the company to staff in a more efficient manner.
On a historical basis, premium pay, while reached by a significant number of pilots each month, has never been that valuable a provision. Consequently, the threshold was raised from 85 to 87 in exchange for a number of more valuable provisions.
Company has to first allow captains to bid to fly as F/O. If insufficient number bid, then company can assign captains to fly as F/O in inverse seniority order. In all cases, such captains exercise their seniority against all F/O when bidding monthly schedules--meaning a junior captain can bid and fly a much more desirable line when flying as F/O then he could hold as F/O. Also, in all cases, such captains are paid their full captain pay and benefits for flying as F/O.
The cola increases are in excess of 4.1% in years 2, 3 & 4 of the contract, and in excess of 4.6% on the amendable date, for a compounded increase of 18.17% over the contracts duration. Those percentages are significantly higher than historical inflation or COLA increases
Wow. Quoting you from a different post, "this TA is remarkably good IMHO.". Are you management?
You are absolutely cheerleading this TA. Given circumstances as they are, the leverage that pilots have, and the fact that nobody wants to get into the industry anymore due to inadequate compensation--- that TA is a joke. RAH can do better, and the pilots *deserve* better, and you know it. So what's your angle?
03-09-2014, 06:13 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: Just another RJ guy
Posts: 906
Sorry pal, but you have it all wrong. Instead of shooting from the hip about things I did not know, I tracked down one of the negotiators and here are the answers he gave me:
Pay increases exceed historical inflation rate by more than 1% per year. 1). F/O pay is just below the average highs among RAH's peer group, and well above the average of that peer group. First year F/O pay is the highest in that peer group and 9th year matches exactly the average high in that peer group. Hourly pay rate increases for F/O range from 11% per year to more than 29%.
There is no "hot reserve." There is long call reserve, short call reserve and airport standby, as contemplated by FAR 117. All three have considerable scheduling and pay protections that don't exist in our current CBA, which are designed to 2). prevent company abuse.
3). Co-basing can only occur with mutual agreement on the terms, logistics and conditions between the Company and Union on a location by location basis. As of the DOS, there will be no co-bases that have such an agreement, including the example of the New York area listed in the LOA.
While language might appear vague to average pilot, 4). the company and the union reached a large number of understandings of intent regarding such language that is recorded in the agreed upon record of joint bargaining notes between the parties.
Pilots must be contactable by their employer when at work and on duty--ONLY WHEN on duty and NOT when on a layover, in rest or on days-off. However, if reassigned when at work, there are all kinds of pay and scheduling protections, including extra pay for "plus-ups" and overblocking. In exchange, RAH pilots DO NOT continue to NOT have any form of junior manning, which each and every one of our peers has in some form or fashion. Consequently, days off at RAH are, in fact, days off and the abillity to commute home as planned is greatly enhanced.
5). Hard staffing requirements rarely, if ever, exist in the airline industry. However, new FAR 117 rules, along with the duty and trip rigs will force the company to staff in a more efficient manner.
6). On a historical basis, premium pay, while reached by a significant number of pilots each month, has never been that valuable a provision. Consequently, the threshold was raised from 85 to 87 in exchange for a number of more valuable provisions.
7). Company has to first allow captains to bid to fly as F/O. If insufficient number bid, then company can assign captains to fly as F/O in inverse seniority order. In all cases, such captains exercise their seniority against all F/O when bidding monthly schedules--meaning a junior captain can bid and fly a much more desirable line when flying as F/O then he could hold as F/O. Also, in all cases, such captains are paid their full captain pay and benefits for flying as F/O.
The cola increases are in excess of 4.1% in years 2, 3 & 4 of the contract, and in excess of 4.6% on the amendable date, for a compounded increase of 18.17% over the contracts duration. Those percentages are significantly higher than historical inflation or COLA increases
Pay increases exceed historical inflation rate by more than 1% per year. 1). F/O pay is just below the average highs among RAH's peer group, and well above the average of that peer group. First year F/O pay is the highest in that peer group and 9th year matches exactly the average high in that peer group. Hourly pay rate increases for F/O range from 11% per year to more than 29%.
There is no "hot reserve." There is long call reserve, short call reserve and airport standby, as contemplated by FAR 117. All three have considerable scheduling and pay protections that don't exist in our current CBA, which are designed to 2). prevent company abuse.
3). Co-basing can only occur with mutual agreement on the terms, logistics and conditions between the Company and Union on a location by location basis. As of the DOS, there will be no co-bases that have such an agreement, including the example of the New York area listed in the LOA.
While language might appear vague to average pilot, 4). the company and the union reached a large number of understandings of intent regarding such language that is recorded in the agreed upon record of joint bargaining notes between the parties.
Pilots must be contactable by their employer when at work and on duty--ONLY WHEN on duty and NOT when on a layover, in rest or on days-off. However, if reassigned when at work, there are all kinds of pay and scheduling protections, including extra pay for "plus-ups" and overblocking. In exchange, RAH pilots DO NOT continue to NOT have any form of junior manning, which each and every one of our peers has in some form or fashion. Consequently, days off at RAH are, in fact, days off and the abillity to commute home as planned is greatly enhanced.
5). Hard staffing requirements rarely, if ever, exist in the airline industry. However, new FAR 117 rules, along with the duty and trip rigs will force the company to staff in a more efficient manner.
6). On a historical basis, premium pay, while reached by a significant number of pilots each month, has never been that valuable a provision. Consequently, the threshold was raised from 85 to 87 in exchange for a number of more valuable provisions.
7). Company has to first allow captains to bid to fly as F/O. If insufficient number bid, then company can assign captains to fly as F/O in inverse seniority order. In all cases, such captains exercise their seniority against all F/O when bidding monthly schedules--meaning a junior captain can bid and fly a much more desirable line when flying as F/O then he could hold as F/O. Also, in all cases, such captains are paid their full captain pay and benefits for flying as F/O.
The cola increases are in excess of 4.1% in years 2, 3 & 4 of the contract, and in excess of 4.6% on the amendable date, for a compounded increase of 18.17% over the contracts duration. Those percentages are significantly higher than historical inflation or COLA increases
2) That's an oxy moron and anyone in the regional group knows that.
3) This language is also in Endeavor's concessionary contract. Guess what's happening now? The airline came to the union and asked to create a co-domicile in LGA and JFK. Check out what's happening there now. I guarantee you the airline will use this vaguely written sentence in the contract and get what they want when they want it.
4) The new Compass contract was approved and now being implemented with "a large number of understandings of intent regarding such language that is recorded in the agreed upon record of joint bargaining notes between the parties" and guess what's happening now?...there are several very important parts of those "notes" that are being sent back to an arbitrator and being grieved. Management depends on vague language to have the ability to drag their feet on implementation and enforcement. Solid language is VITAL.
5). Again, why are you so happy that you're going for industry average? Now's the time to be innovative and get those protections! Be the first to get those protections and rise above the average. Raise the bar! Now's the time.
6). Again, historically average and what has been in the regional world. Premium pay not only puts a lot more money in our pockets...it also is an incentive for the airline to run an efficient operation.
7). Once again, eliminating this from the TA will force the company to run an efficient airline with proper staffing. Allowing this allows the company to run too lean and therefore strain the workforce. Take this out of the TA and the airline will be forced to hire more.
03-09-2014, 06:40 AM
#14
New Hire
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 5
1). Huh? Anything average is unacceptable. Why is it ok for you to accept average? I really want to know. Do you not realize how much leverage the pilots have right now to gain ABOVE average gains? You seems way too comfortable with accepting average or around average.
2) That's an oxy moron and anyone in the regional group knows that.
3) This language is also in Endeavor's concessionary contract. Guess what's happening now? The airline came to the union and asked to create a co-domicile in LGA and JFK. Check out what's happening there now. I guarantee you the airline will use this vaguely written sentence in the contract and get what they want when they want it.
4) The new Compass contract was approved and now being implemented with "a large number of understandings of intent regarding such language that is recorded in the agreed upon record of joint bargaining notes between the parties" and guess what's happening now?...there are several very important parts of those "notes" that are being sent back to an arbitrator and being grieved. Management depends on vague language to have the ability to drag their feet on implementation and enforcement. Solid language is VITAL.
5). Again, why are you so happy that you're going for industry average? Now's the time to be innovative and get those protections! Be the first to get those protections and rise above the average. Raise the bar! Now's the time.
6). Again, historically average and what has been in the regional world. Premium pay not only puts a lot more money in our pockets...it also is an incentive for the airline to run an efficient operation.
7). Once again, eliminating this from the TA will force the company to run an efficient airline with proper staffing. Allowing this allows the company to run too lean and therefore strain the workforce. Take this out of the TA and the airline will be forced to hire more.
2) That's an oxy moron and anyone in the regional group knows that.
3) This language is also in Endeavor's concessionary contract. Guess what's happening now? The airline came to the union and asked to create a co-domicile in LGA and JFK. Check out what's happening there now. I guarantee you the airline will use this vaguely written sentence in the contract and get what they want when they want it.
4) The new Compass contract was approved and now being implemented with "a large number of understandings of intent regarding such language that is recorded in the agreed upon record of joint bargaining notes between the parties" and guess what's happening now?...there are several very important parts of those "notes" that are being sent back to an arbitrator and being grieved. Management depends on vague language to have the ability to drag their feet on implementation and enforcement. Solid language is VITAL.
5). Again, why are you so happy that you're going for industry average? Now's the time to be innovative and get those protections! Be the first to get those protections and rise above the average. Raise the bar! Now's the time.
6). Again, historically average and what has been in the regional world. Premium pay not only puts a lot more money in our pockets...it also is an incentive for the airline to run an efficient operation.
7). Once again, eliminating this from the TA will force the company to run an efficient airline with proper staffing. Allowing this allows the company to run too lean and therefore strain the workforce. Take this out of the TA and the airline will be forced to hire more.
03-09-2014, 06:55 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,150
The TA is not average--it is at or above our peer group. What is remarkably good about the TA is just how significant the improvements in pay and workrules it contains in comparison to our current CBA. No matter how much we wish we were mainline pilots with their pay and working conditions, stop the self-dilusional rhetoric, WE ARE NOT. They fly for mainline carriers. We fly for regional carriers that are totally at the mercy of the mainline carriers. Until that paradigm shifts significantly, we will never be able to break out of the mold we are in. That shift will NEVER occur at the bargaining table--it can only occur in the halls of congress and the office of the regulators. Take this TA, and take it fast before management gets cold feet about paying us more than our peers. It is far and away the best overall agreement in our industry. I do not want to wait for 2 or three more years, not only to lose the gains imbedded in this TA during that time, but it is highly likely a subsequent TA would have less if the Eagle and XJT guys buckle. I am not comfortable letting them and ALPA control my destiny. Collectively, they created this "regional" mess in the first place.
YGBSM!
03-09-2014, 07:20 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: Just another RJ guy
Posts: 906
The TA is not average--it is at or above our peer group. What is remarkably good about the TA is just how significant the improvements in pay and workrules it contains in comparison to our current CBA. No matter how much we wish we were mainline pilots with their pay and working conditions, stop the self-dilusional rhetoric, WE ARE NOT. They fly for mainline carriers. We fly for regional carriers that are totally at the mercy of the mainline carriers. Until that paradigm shifts significantly, we will never be able to break out of the mold we are in. That shift will NEVER occur at the bargaining table--it can only occur in the halls of congress and the office of the regulators. Take this TA, and take it fast before management gets cold feet about paying us more than our peers. It is far and away the best overall agreement in our industry. I do not want to wait for 2 or three more years, not only to lose the gains imbedded in this TA during that time, but it is highly likely a subsequent TA would have less if the Eagle and XJT guys buckle. I am not comfortable letting them and ALPA control my destiny. Collectively, they created this "regional" mess in the first place.
You are looking at this from a point of view that sees this as an "improvement" from where you are now. There rest of the regional group looks at this opportunity to gain improvements above the regional airline average. Not necessarily mainline pay and rules because we know we aren't at that point and no one is that naive. But there is NO reason to shoot for peer group average...which is what this TA is. You deserve better. Now is your time to raise the bar. Raise.The.Bar.
03-09-2014, 07:32 AM
#17
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: looking for both
Posts: 36
The TA is not average--it is at or above our peer group. What is remarkably good about the TA is just how significant the improvements in pay and workrules it contains in comparison to our current CBA. No matter how much we wish we were mainline pilots with their pay and working conditions, stop the self-dilusional rhetoric, WE ARE NOT. They fly for mainline carriers. We fly for regional carriers that are totally at the mercy of the mainline carriers. Until that paradigm shifts significantly, we will never be able to break out of the mold we are in. That shift will NEVER occur at the bargaining table--it can only occur in the halls of congress and the office of the regulators. Take this TA, and take it fast before management gets cold feet about paying us more than our peers. It is far and away the best overall agreement in our industry. I do not want to wait for 2 or three more years, not only to lose the gains imbedded in this TA during that time, but it is highly likely a subsequent TA would have less if the Eagle and XJT guys buckle. I am not comfortable letting them and ALPA control my destiny. Collectively, they created this "regional" mess in the first place.
A significant increase over our current CBA? That's not hard considering we start at the very bottom of the industry; moreover, the company has been dragging feet for 7 years with no liability on their end whatsoever. It by no means makes this TA better than our peers, not even equal.
- pay still sucks
- language across the board is terribly vague
- welcome hot reserve (I'm sorry it's not hot reserve it's airport standby)
- contactability for all, at all times, at our expense
- scheduling gains are useless due to language, and the fact the company can take it away in a year
- a blank check for co-basing
- did I mention how soft or non existing the language for the entire TA is
Are you really blaming the regional mess on another regional pilot group? This "regional mess" is made so by design. It benefits those in charge, and it benefits mainline partners. It puts downward pressure on the entire industry.
I feel silly by even responding to your ignorance, but saving one poor soul from taking your drivel as facts will be worth it.
03-09-2014, 07:36 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2012
Posts: 126
100% BS. If it is not in the TA, it is not in the TA. Do not fall for what they want you to think it says--- what does it actually say. Be creative in thinking of ways the company can screw you under the language AS WRITTEN. Unless it is AIRTIGHT, they will come up with novel and innovative ways to break you down. And your only backstop will be the FARs. Regional managements (and especially RAH) have proven this repeatedly over the last decades. They have proven themselves untrustworthy many times over.
03-09-2014, 07:41 AM
#19
New Hire
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 5
Maybe your 5th post on this forum will say that Skywest is not in fact part of our peer group.
A significant increase over our current CBA? That's not hard considering we start at the very bottom of the industry; moreover, the company has been dragging feet for 7 years with no liability on their end whatsoever. It by no means makes this TA better than our peers, not even equal.
Are you really blaming the regional mess on another regional pilot group? This "regional mess" is made so by design. It benefits those in charge, and it benefits mainline partners. It puts downward pressure on the entire industry.
I feel silly by even responding to your ignorance, but saving one poor soul from taking your drivel as facts will be worth it.
A significant increase over our current CBA? That's not hard considering we start at the very bottom of the industry; moreover, the company has been dragging feet for 7 years with no liability on their end whatsoever. It by no means makes this TA better than our peers, not even equal.
- pay still sucks
- language across the board is terribly vague
- welcome hot reserve (I'm sorry it's not hot reserve it's airport standby)
- contactability for all, at all times, at our expense
- scheduling gains are useless due to language, and the fact the company can take it away in a year
- a blank check for co-basing
- did I mention how soft or non existing the language for the entire TA is
Are you really blaming the regional mess on another regional pilot group? This "regional mess" is made so by design. It benefits those in charge, and it benefits mainline partners. It puts downward pressure on the entire industry.
I feel silly by even responding to your ignorance, but saving one poor soul from taking your drivel as facts will be worth it.
03-09-2014, 07:51 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 182
Those "town hall" calls were an absolute crock. The handful of my peers that I have been able to talk to since the last one ended yesterday and I all agree that all those did was strengthen our NO votes. Epic freakin' fail, Negotiating "Team"!
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