Delta to buy Pinnacle
01-05-2013, 09:38 AM
#121
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Position: Screwed
Posts: 68
Maybe a delta pilot can weigh in on this, but I was talking with a delta crew in philly before Xmas and they were saying that delta has some new program that accounts for rest rules and staffing and that they've figured out a way to operate with their current staffing model. What I took from that was them saying that they wouldn't need to add pilots to the list solely because of the new rest rules. Johnso29, you're a delta guy I think, know anything about this?
I have heard the same thing. Someone said that they are shaving off 15 minutes, or something like that, off their showtime and that will allow better efficencies and production from the pilots. I heard that from a United guy who said United may adopt the same program. So much for the pilot shortage I have been waiting 25 years for...
01-05-2013, 10:46 AM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: A320
Posts: 1,316
Well played Pinchanickled but once again you left out some important information. Neither options address the benefits of the TA to a very junior pilot and to the industry as a whole.
If you had the choice:
A) Keep your job a little while longer to build up your flight time, get your ATP to make yourself more marketable and all the other perks in the TA plus $2000 for 0-1st year longevity, save the aircraft we have left from going to S5 and Gojets which lowers the bar even more for your next negotiations.
OR
B) Become unemployed
What would you personally choose? And yes this is a direct question for you to answer, a simple A or B will suffice.
And while were at it, I will repost the other two questions I posed to you, just in case you missed them or just forgot to answer them.
1) Pinchanickled, if you were making $75K to $120k per year, would you be so eager to give that up for the sake of the industry and the good of other pilots? Just curious, an honest yes or no answer please with an explanation if you dont mind. Thanks
2) Also, in all sincerity, could you explain how it will benefit the industry when our airplanes go to a carrier that will fly them for less than we can, even with our concessionary TA? Keep in mind that three other carriers have already bid for our flying in the event the TA doesnt pass and they are cheaper than us with our TA.
Pinchanickled, please understand that I am not trying to attack you. I am sincerely looking for a rational arguement that would sway my vote from yes to no. Most of you dont have all the information regarding this TA so its difficult to make an informed decision. I understand that.
To everyone else, I am just curious. How would you all honestly vote if you were in our situation given the above information?
This TA sucks. Unemployment sucks more.
You guys still crack me up
If you had the choice:
A) Keep your job a little while longer to build up your flight time, get your ATP to make yourself more marketable and all the other perks in the TA plus $2000 for 0-1st year longevity, save the aircraft we have left from going to S5 and Gojets which lowers the bar even more for your next negotiations.
OR
B) Become unemployed
What would you personally choose? And yes this is a direct question for you to answer, a simple A or B will suffice.
And while were at it, I will repost the other two questions I posed to you, just in case you missed them or just forgot to answer them.
1) Pinchanickled, if you were making $75K to $120k per year, would you be so eager to give that up for the sake of the industry and the good of other pilots? Just curious, an honest yes or no answer please with an explanation if you dont mind. Thanks
2) Also, in all sincerity, could you explain how it will benefit the industry when our airplanes go to a carrier that will fly them for less than we can, even with our concessionary TA? Keep in mind that three other carriers have already bid for our flying in the event the TA doesnt pass and they are cheaper than us with our TA.
Pinchanickled, please understand that I am not trying to attack you. I am sincerely looking for a rational arguement that would sway my vote from yes to no. Most of you dont have all the information regarding this TA so its difficult to make an informed decision. I understand that.
To everyone else, I am just curious. How would you all honestly vote if you were in our situation given the above information?
This TA sucks. Unemployment sucks more.
You guys still crack me up
Nothing personal to you as I don't know you and will not judge your moral character on a pilot forum. However this type of view when voting is kind of what got pilots in the debacle that they are in at the moment. Being part of a "union" yet only thinking about themselves as the voter.
I think (hope) we are seeing a change within this toxic culture of professional pilots. A change where a vote is more about the group (all pilots in the industry) as a whole, rather than the voter himself. People need to look around an weigh out the situation before they vote. Some vote out of spite. Some out of greed. But I hear a lot more about people voting yes/no when the outcome may not favor themselves only.
So when you point out that voting no will most likely result in an unfavorable situation for the voter himself remember he has probably thought of that. Quite possibly for once he feels taking one for the team is the best course of action.
I for one think airlines need some type of accountability. For as far as airlines go back, poor management has been bailed out so many times by the very pilot groups that followed them so loyally. Rock bottom has been hit and the job is sort of on the fence when it comes to sacrificing yours if it means management has to look else where to be cost competitive to emerge from years of incompetence.
Pilots need to stand up for themselves . Not their jobs.
01-05-2013, 02:51 PM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,735
It depends where on the list you sit. If I was very junior I can see a no vote would make sense. However with guys who are half way up the list, it's a different story. If we turned down this TA we get shut down in 6-12 months. However, it we vote this TA in, someone who's half way on the list will very likely have a job til mid-late 2014 (based on reduction of all reduction of all 200's and additional 40 900's). Yes 65% will be out of a job but by voting this in they might see it as having a job for another 12-18 months. I'm not saying that what I'm basing my vote on but my guess of why guys might vote yes or no.
01-05-2013, 03:03 PM
#126
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Position: Screwed
Posts: 68
Nothing personal to you as I don't know you and will not judge your moral character on a pilot forum. However this type of view when voting is kind of what got pilots in the debacle that they are in at the moment. Being part of a "union" yet only thinking about themselves as the voter.
I think (hope) we are seeing a change within this toxic culture of professional pilots. A change where a vote is more about the group (all pilots in the industry) as a whole, rather than the voter himself. People need to look around an weigh out the situation before they vote. Some vote out of spite. Some out of greed. But I hear a lot more about people voting yes/no when the outcome may not favor themselves only.
So when you point out that voting no will most likely result in an unfavorable situation for the voter himself remember he has probably thought of that. Quite possibly for once he feels taking one for the team is the best course of action.
I for one think airlines need some type of accountability. For as far as airlines go back, poor management has been bailed out so many times by the very pilot groups that followed them so loyally. Rock bottom has been hit and the job is sort of on the fence when it comes to sacrificing yours if it means management has to look else where to be cost competitive to emerge from years of incompetence.
Pilots need to stand up for themselves . Not their jobs.
I think (hope) we are seeing a change within this toxic culture of professional pilots. A change where a vote is more about the group (all pilots in the industry) as a whole, rather than the voter himself. People need to look around an weigh out the situation before they vote. Some vote out of spite. Some out of greed. But I hear a lot more about people voting yes/no when the outcome may not favor themselves only.
So when you point out that voting no will most likely result in an unfavorable situation for the voter himself remember he has probably thought of that. Quite possibly for once he feels taking one for the team is the best course of action.
I for one think airlines need some type of accountability. For as far as airlines go back, poor management has been bailed out so many times by the very pilot groups that followed them so loyally. Rock bottom has been hit and the job is sort of on the fence when it comes to sacrificing yours if it means management has to look else where to be cost competitive to emerge from years of incompetence.
Pilots need to stand up for themselves . Not their jobs.
Everyone thinks about themselves regardless of their occupation. Pilots are no exception. I believe most of us (pilots) do consider the ramifications that our actions have on the industry as a whole (eg. 9E not letting the planes go to the lowest bidder). But I cannot deny that self-interest also plays a role. Thats just human nature.
The perfect world does not exist. If it did, we would all be equal, make the same amount of income. Thats not our reality. The reality is my carrier/pilots want your flying and your carrier/pilots want our flying. Mainline carriers want to make more money so they take it from the weaker companies in the game when possible. Thats not good for everyone. That is the game of doing business.
If it was as straight forward as saying, "lets just put together an ISL and contract that is best for all involved", there would be no need for attorneys. However, whats best for the junior pilot, is not what is best for the mid seniority pilot. Whats best for the mid seniority pilot is not whats best for the most senior pilot, etc. So, we negotiate. Some people are happy with the result, some are not. Most just disgruntled about the whole affair.
9E had a very different view on how 9L and XJ should be treated with respect to the ISL and vice versus. There's no perfect formula that fits the needs of everyone. If there was, all pilots would make the same amount of money, regardless of what plane they flew, which seat they occupy, or how many seats the plane has. But there is not. We fight against each other and our competition, even though the competition sometimes works for the same carrier.
Rock bottom with respect to our TA is close but not "hit". Rock bottom would be no TA and no job. The carriers that will do it cheapest are the rock bottom. We are not there yet.
I think that the reason I keep coming back to this forum is to interact with people like you. You bring up a rational view of how you see the world around you and you speak from the heart. That makes me see things in my world in a different view. Hopefully we both grow from the interaction.
Thanks
Last edited by CheckPower; 01-05-2013 at 03:27 PM.
01-05-2013, 04:52 PM
#130
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Pilot
Posts: 2,625
So you personally knew every Comair pilot to know that all of them had an attitude problem? You just nominated yourself for tool of the day.
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