NPRM results released?
06-06-2012, 01:10 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: CRJ
Posts: 419
The majors will start to care when half their flights (which are 'regional' flights) can't operate anymore at the current pace because the regionals can't staff their airlines.
I'm not against the ATP thing but this could have some unintended consequences. It's not like people are just going to go out and buy 1500 hours of time and the appropriate amount of M/E time to get an ATP and there aren't really enough of the right kind of jobs to build that time with either. There may be enough folks out there floating around right now but in a couple years it could be very, very difficult to find adequate numbers of pilots. That's when the majors will start to care.
I'm not against the ATP thing but this could have some unintended consequences. It's not like people are just going to go out and buy 1500 hours of time and the appropriate amount of M/E time to get an ATP and there aren't really enough of the right kind of jobs to build that time with either. There may be enough folks out there floating around right now but in a couple years it could be very, very difficult to find adequate numbers of pilots. That's when the majors will start to care.
IMO, this lack of new pilots is more of a money issue, not a time building thing . Cost of training skyrocketing, pay and QOL at the regionals suck, and lack of career progression. Some would call this low return on investment. I think the airlines are going to have to sweeten the pot a little if they don't want to run out of pilots.
06-06-2012, 01:37 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: CRJ
Posts: 419
Ok caught up on the thread now. I see what many of you said about those time building jobs drying up. I also agree what someone else said. Bigger air frames and less airplanes means less pilots needed. We are already heading that direction.
I see this as a win for places like Riddle and UND. Instructors there can rack up that time in no time. Multi time is no issue, they pay for you to get your MEI I think. So a student could go there, get his/her ratings, credit towards their time because of their degree, get hired as an instructor, build time, become MEI, get multi time, and be out the door. That's what the instructors did when I went there. They even instructed while still being students. You could easily go there and get your time and degree in 4-5 years. Shorter if you stay for summers. So then you may ask yourself, well you need a supply of students. Well offer a bridge program or guaranteed interview, maybe a few bucks more an hour (or signing bonus), and there you go. When they start seeing all the hiring going on at the majors and jobs opening up at the regionals, people will be lining up. Hell, the airlines could even pay places like Riddle or UND, for every pilot they send them if they needed pilots that bad.
If I were in marketing at Riddle or UND, that would be my angle to get students to come. I'd also be making those kinds of deals with the airlines right now, if I were them. They may have to lower tuition too I think to get some more students.
I see this as a win for places like Riddle and UND. Instructors there can rack up that time in no time. Multi time is no issue, they pay for you to get your MEI I think. So a student could go there, get his/her ratings, credit towards their time because of their degree, get hired as an instructor, build time, become MEI, get multi time, and be out the door. That's what the instructors did when I went there. They even instructed while still being students. You could easily go there and get your time and degree in 4-5 years. Shorter if you stay for summers. So then you may ask yourself, well you need a supply of students. Well offer a bridge program or guaranteed interview, maybe a few bucks more an hour (or signing bonus), and there you go. When they start seeing all the hiring going on at the majors and jobs opening up at the regionals, people will be lining up. Hell, the airlines could even pay places like Riddle or UND, for every pilot they send them if they needed pilots that bad.
If I were in marketing at Riddle or UND, that would be my angle to get students to come. I'd also be making those kinds of deals with the airlines right now, if I were them. They may have to lower tuition too I think to get some more students.
06-06-2012, 01:54 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 192
Ok caught up on the thread now. I see what many of you said about those time building jobs drying up. I also agree what someone else said. Bigger air frames and less airplanes means less pilots needed. We are already heading that direction.
I see this as a win for places like Riddle and UND. Instructors there can rack up that time in no time. Multi time is no issue, they pay for you to get your MEI I think. So a student could go there, get his/her ratings, credit towards their time because of their degree, get hired as an instructor, build time, become MEI, get multi time, and be out the door. That's what the instructors did when I went there. They even instructed while still being students. You could easily go there and get your time and degree in 4-5 years. Shorter if you stay for summers. So then you may ask yourself, well you need a supply of students. Well offer a bridge program or guaranteed interview, maybe a few bucks more an hour (or signing bonus), and there you go. When they start seeing all the hiring going on at the majors and jobs opening up at the regionals, people will be lining up. Hell, the airlines could even pay places like Riddle or UND, for every pilot they send them if they needed pilots that bad.
If I were in marketing at Riddle or UND, that would be my angle to get students to come. I'd also be making those kinds of deals with the airlines right now, if I were them. They may have to lower tuition too I think to get some more students.
I see this as a win for places like Riddle and UND. Instructors there can rack up that time in no time. Multi time is no issue, they pay for you to get your MEI I think. So a student could go there, get his/her ratings, credit towards their time because of their degree, get hired as an instructor, build time, become MEI, get multi time, and be out the door. That's what the instructors did when I went there. They even instructed while still being students. You could easily go there and get your time and degree in 4-5 years. Shorter if you stay for summers. So then you may ask yourself, well you need a supply of students. Well offer a bridge program or guaranteed interview, maybe a few bucks more an hour (or signing bonus), and there you go. When they start seeing all the hiring going on at the majors and jobs opening up at the regionals, people will be lining up. Hell, the airlines could even pay places like Riddle or UND, for every pilot they send them if they needed pilots that bad.
If I were in marketing at Riddle or UND, that would be my angle to get students to come. I'd also be making those kinds of deals with the airlines right now, if I were them. They may have to lower tuition too I think to get some more students.
06-06-2012, 09:43 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: CRJ
Posts: 419
^Above is exactly what I'd like to do...Private before college, Instrument/Commercial/2 years of flight instructing at college = 1,000 hours. Add some kind of bridge to regional airlines such that one can begin immediately after college, and it seems like the most sensible option to me.
06-06-2012, 09:57 PM
#36
Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Tiki bar
Posts: 2,634
There is an age waiver in the NPRM that allows for a 'frozen ATP' at age 21 if all other requirements are met.
06-07-2012, 12:18 AM
#37
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
^Above is exactly what I'd like to do...Private before college, Instrument/Commercial/2 years of flight instructing at college = 1,000 hours. Add some kind of bridge to regional airlines such that one can begin immediately after college, and it seems like the most sensible option to me.
Whenever I hear about how few low time jobs there are, I look at the orange site and Will Fly and others and see many jobs. Yes, if one lives is Back Water, USA, there may be no low time jobs, but one needs to go where the work is (think the "California or Bust" folks in the depression). Admittedly, getting from 250 to 500 TT is tough (Instructing is about all there is), but after that, there are jobs. I know of several places that are ALWAYS looking for pilots, the jobs are not sexy, the pay ain't great, and you may need to live in Armpit, Oklahoma, but they will give you hours. If moving a few times in the first few years of your career is unsatisfactory maybe flying isn't for you.
The field of aviation isn't like preschool T-ball: we keep score and don't give out "participation awards". If that is too tough, then go elsewhere.
(For those of you who don't know me, I have done my share of "time building" jobs. I'm not a check airman and no longer a CFI, but when I get a wet behind the ears 500-1000 hour guy who has never flown as a check hauling PIC or other "I really signed for the plane job", I might as well be back instructing. The best FOs I have flown with have all done single pilot 135 stuff.)
06-07-2012, 01:06 AM
#38
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,764
Let's get this straight... as much as RAA and Roger Cohen and the regional management types may gripe, THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF EXPERIENCED, QUALIFIED PILOTS! However, there is a developing shortage of qualified pilots willing to work for insulting wages.
It's Economics 101 - Supply/Demand. People with any sort of experience will not do it for poverty wages. Throw in the uncertainty of not flying under your own code and being handicapped by the date-of-hire seniority system.... they'd have to pay A LOT more to attract experienced pilots.
Regional airline managements are doing their job in trying to keep the costs as low as possible. Pilot mentality in the US of fostering the whole "paying your dues" bullsh*t is also not helping because in all the chest thumping and holier-than-thou attitude we display towards up and coming pilots by encouraging them to take sh*t jobs just to get to that magic next level, we are in fact cheapening ourselves and promoting the notion that pilots are cheap labor willing to do whatever it takes for that 1 hour of flight time.
What's the answer? They'll just have to pay up to attract people, or they'll have to go under.
To those who think that regionals cannot afford to pay those wages, perhaps they can explain to me how come we aren't back to stagecoach days with oil price spike over the past decade? How come we still have cars, let alone airlines operating?
The bottom line is, the airlines can evolve and pay more to attract pilots just as they've evolved from operating in $25/barrel oil to $125/barrel oil.
It's Economics 101 - Supply/Demand. People with any sort of experience will not do it for poverty wages. Throw in the uncertainty of not flying under your own code and being handicapped by the date-of-hire seniority system.... they'd have to pay A LOT more to attract experienced pilots.
Regional airline managements are doing their job in trying to keep the costs as low as possible. Pilot mentality in the US of fostering the whole "paying your dues" bullsh*t is also not helping because in all the chest thumping and holier-than-thou attitude we display towards up and coming pilots by encouraging them to take sh*t jobs just to get to that magic next level, we are in fact cheapening ourselves and promoting the notion that pilots are cheap labor willing to do whatever it takes for that 1 hour of flight time.
What's the answer? They'll just have to pay up to attract people, or they'll have to go under.
To those who think that regionals cannot afford to pay those wages, perhaps they can explain to me how come we aren't back to stagecoach days with oil price spike over the past decade? How come we still have cars, let alone airlines operating?
The bottom line is, the airlines can evolve and pay more to attract pilots just as they've evolved from operating in $25/barrel oil to $125/barrel oil.
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