zoooropa

Wow you are getting sensitive. Thank you very much for the reference to "trade unionism", by the way. I am not sure what you are talking about with regard to the sneering, but it was a nice way to wrap up the post none the less. Why is my nose "dirty"?

Any who, I never said you should sit in your place. I did suggest that you adapt your methods. You have been beating the same drum now since day one, and it has gotten you no where. I wasn't rubbing your nose in a pile of dogsh1t, just observing what seems to be a failing strategy.



Again, I did not criticize you. I did in fact wish you luck and express my hope that you achieve everything that you are asking for and more. My theme, explained in yet another point of view, is simply that the aviation world is rapidly evolving around us (RAH). AMR BK, reduction in 50 seaters, divestiture of Frontier.

The airline industry, and RAH, are not the same as they were in 2003, or 2007 or even 2011. Regardless, instead of making tactical adjustments, the IBT negotiation approach (from an outsider looking in) appears to be the same old same old.

"FU pay me" certainly rolls off the tongue nicely, but it very rarely if ever produces any measurable benefit.

Please forgive my dirty nose from butting into your business. This isn't a criticism, just an observation. Your negotiating tactics have not been successful and while I hate cliches, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is some peoples' definition of insanity.

Too me, it is just poor negotiating.

seattlepilot

Zooropa,
I have some friends at F9 that I discussed this whole negotiating subject with. The problem is you guys have never had to deal with a management working on a CBA for 6 years overdue... I seriously don't wish it to you but your time will come and we shall see how long it will take you to negotiate a new CBA..
Unfortunately it will be another 'we need to lower our costs' before your CBA becomes amandable..

If you don't lose the sight that we are in this together, I'd appreciate it..

zoooropa

I haven't lost sight that we are in this together, because we are not in this together.

I worked harder than you will ever know for the "together" concept.

Then the IBT sued over LOA 67 and proceeded to agree to a Joint Council with the FA's shortly after telling the Frontier pilots that a JC was impossible.

The together ship has sailed. Don't lose sight that there were multiple chances to foster "togetherness" and the IBT said "no" to us just like they always say no to the company.

Same m.o., same results.

Mulva

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is how the vocal RAHbros are never willing to find even a minutiae of fault with representatives. It is a constant pass the buck, not our fault, blame someone else mentality. You guys really need to call out your eBoard for a detailed explanation of various events, current and past.

The following comments I wrote yesterday, but they became old news quickly so I decided to table them. After further thought, though, I figured what the heck, the more the merrier. I'm sure it will incite some nice responses and create an opportunity for constructive discussion (right!). Without further adieu:

IBT357 Followers:

In case some of you haven't yet read the Teamsters Airline Division News for the Week Ending March 18, 2012, I wanted to re-post this really cool quote from Capt. David Bourne:

I case you are wondering why I like it so much, it has to do with the use of the words "deceitful", "misinformation" and "untruths." These are important words because they are a perfect description of how the IBT357 is handling communication with their followers (errr.... membership) with regard to the proposed FO pay raise issue at RAH.

Currently, the Republic intranet site has some interesting information available for review by employees. Check it out under the "News and Events" section. Keep in mind the words "deceitful", "misinformation" and "untruths" as you read through the documents.

Now, of course, I realize many of you will discount this information as something contrived by the company to:

Your own IBT357 eBoard President made that statement in his communique to the followers yesterday (3/28) and I'm confounded as to why he chose to use the word "spin" when it is the IBT who is proactively attempting to "spin" (a.k.a deceive and misinform) the message to the followers, most likely knowing that the Company planned to release the full record so that each of you could read for yourselves.

So here are the highlights since I am fairly certain the majority will refuse to even entertain visiting the aforementioned intranet site to self-educate, as opposed to embracing the IBT rhetoric like a 6 month upgrade.

Here you go:

In January the Company proposed to IBT357 that FO pay rates should be increased which was a message received very positively by your eBoard during that particular negotiating session.

Earlier this month, based on the positive reception of the eBoard to the FO raise proposed in January, RAH management suggested (in person) that they were prepared to implement the raise effective April 1, 2012, which was evidently once again positively received from your eBoard. Not only was it well received, but it was supposedly received with the understanding that the raise would be provided without prejudice to your Union's negotiating position nor with the intention to influence those negotiations. Furthermore, the Company claims the issue of attrition and difficulty filling new-hire classes was never, once, mentioned as a reason for proposing an FO pay raise.

Everything mentioned in the last paragraph (and more) was communicated very professionally back to your eBoard not long after the 357s 1st communique to their followers on the subject in early March. This communication from the Company to your eBoard was met with silence (a.k.a. "crickets chirping") for roughly 2 weeks until, which time, the Company (through their attorney's) notified your eBoard that they would like to know whether or not the IBT wanted the Company to move forward with implementing the raise.

That communication was met with a response from your eBoard (via attorney and using classic IBT rhetoric) reversing their position and essentially turning the communications previously mentioned on their heads as wrongly stating the facts. Your eBoard flip-flopped and was now ratcheting up the "misinformation" campaign, attempting to squarely place the blame for any failure on the Company.

The following day the Company communicated to your eBoard that, due to their reversal of position on the FO raise, they no longer planned to implement it. In the communication, the Company left the door open saying they were still willing to implement an FO raise and were willing to discuss with your eBoard at "any time" and, for the third time in the month of March, expressed that any such raise would be implemented with the understanding that it would be done so "without prejudice to the Section 6 negotiations."

Now I am not making this stuff up followers. It is all available in its' glory for you to educate yourselves and determine your own opinions. Go read it! After doing so I would suggest calling your eBoard president and asking for clarification, as it appears he went from thanking the company for their offer to "holding it hostage" in an effort to leverage the FO pay increase as an underhanded attempt at "self help", although it was clearly communicated (3 times!) by the Company that, it's worth repeating, would be done so "without prejudice to the Section 6 negotiations."

You, followers, are currently being manipulated by those you have elected to represent your interests. Those people (your eBoard), in turn, appear to be nothing more than puppets of IBT National. THIS is a perfect example of why I am not a fan of the IBT and will most likely never be. They are doing you a great disservice by deceiving and misinforming their membership.

Feel free to go ahead and respond accordingly with spiteful APC style comments. I'm ok with that because that's the game we play here at APC. But, PLEASE do me a favor and learn the facts as they have been presented by both sides. Then make your own informed opinions of whether your eBoard is currently acting in your best interests.

sticky

Vuvla...a user on APC was noted saying something similar to "see that the 357 think of the website by the end of the week." That means there are F9 pilots that were aware on the suit over www.rahcontractnow.org before the local knew and before it was made public.

That is strong evidence that there are F9 pilots are are dealing with RAH management directly to work against their own representation.

embraerjetpilot

Mulva. In the history of airline negotiations has there EVER been a pilot group that would intentionally destruct another pilot groups efforts to a new contract like your friends at fapa have done?

TBucket

:: cough :: Gojet :: cough ::

Bolo

Stinky, it is there right before your eyes! Facts, not fiction. Go to the intranet website and dig it up for yourself. Blaming us again? Nice cop out!

embraerjetpilot, putting the blame on FAPA again? When are you guys really going to take responsibility(IBT) of your own actions. F9 pilots want nothing to do with YOUR(our) union. As the evidence shows, overwhelmingly I might add, is that the Local 357 is nothing more than a puppet of IBT National. Chest bumping and pound fisting has not gotten you anything! I do not know how you are going to get a great contract with the IBT?
I wish you the best. Please inform yourselves and go look at the documents. Base your responses on facts and not fiction. Who is "spinning" who? And NO, FAPA was not part of this!

MasterOfPuppets

mulva and bolo I was waiting for you two to chime in. First off I find it insulting that you think we are so uninformed I read all of these articles you Quoted within an hour of them being released. Also, if you were, I'm assuming you are not, members of the 357 website you would see a very healthy disscusion on the material.

We have a very smart pilot group and we, as whole, choose to believe our union over our company. With all due respect you are not as familure with this managements tactics (yet). There will come a day when this management team will raise its ugly head towards F9. So please do me favor and prepare yourselves.
Just please don't underestimate your RAH brothers we are smarter than you think.

Now go outside and go play golf it's a beautiful day

ThrustMonkey

LOA 67 was and is illegal. End of story.