lavMan

And bs on that one. Depends where you did your training. I had 3 fails all under 141 training. I instructed 61, and my students took check rides with DE's. I even added my mei with a DE. A cake walk compared to 141 rides. Got hired and 3 type ratings later, I'm here to tell you it's not a career ender. Yeah I wish I had a perfect record, but I don't. But Im not an idiot. And the label of you're not worthy is a load of crap. I fly with fo's who have a perfect record, and sometimes, their lack of knowledge of basic far's, and other things is astounding. So it really depends on where you trained, and how much time and effort you put into it. Shelling out $$$ to a DE, who gives 30 minute orals, and let's get this check ride over with, doesn't make you an ace pilot?

chuckyt1

No Sir you are not...

PruneJuice

Part 141 rides aren't counted as failures by the FAA. This is why you should always do part 141 training over 61. People can ask about "failed" stage-checks but there is no paper trail so you can always say you've failed none and nobody will know.

skigambia

I am not going to debate the question of whether or not three checkride busts is too many. What I do have to say is that there is a complete lack of standardization among checkrides. I know 141 guys who failed a checkride and had it changed to a training mission on their syllabus. I know some 61 examiners who say that the FSDO starts to get cranky when their pass rate goes above 80% and the flight schools, that provide the bulk of their business, do the same when it falls below 70%. I dont believe that there are very many illegitimate busts out there, but I do believe that there is a significant amount of passes where the examiner gave an extra long leash to the applicant. The point being is that a guy who failed three times may have had the unfortunate luck of running into a couple of buzzsaws, while the perfect record applicant may have floated by because the examiner at the time either changed it to a training mission or gave the guy additional leeway.

StrikeTime

At a cost of it ranging from $60,000 to $200,000? (ERAU). No thanks buddy. Even as a student pilot back in the day I had enough confidence in my abilities to succeed and to tell these schools to ****** off even though it was a more difficult route.

And by the way, my employer has been faced with nothing but problems with pilots from part 141 schools, so much that their starting to take a closer look at where and how applicants received their ratings, regardless of how glamorous their resume looks.

newarkblows

I was a check pilot at a 141 school and did stage checks. You are right that stage checks won't count against you but checkrides will. The problem is the End Of Course EOC exam at a 141 school with self examining authority. If you are taking a checkride for a license or certificate and you fail the oral or flight portion it will count as a failure on your Oklahoma City file. It is the same as taking a ride with a DE but you are doing it in house with the same reporting standards.

If they ask if you have ever failed a stage check on an application and you say no. They will glance through your logbook and read the descriptions of your flights around your stagechecks. It is usually pretty easy to tell if they goofed it up or not.

Std Deviation

In regards to evaluation a checkride says that on a particular day, with a particular examiner, and a particular set of environmental circumstances you met the standard at that time or did not. An examiner gets a fraction of a snapshot to determine a pass or fail.

Years ago, I was in favor of eliminating the DPE system and allowing instructors of a certain experience level to "self certify" the applicant. In other words, I've spend 40+ hours with this person, and I'm in the best position to judge competency. Not a DPE who may or may not have a financial conflict of interest. Never worked out the kinks in this but my belief is the applicants would actually improve as the CFI is "on the hook."

As a side note, when I took my CFI initial in 1991 in the Detroit FSDO all applicants for CFI initial were required to test with the FAA. The DTW FSDO would not allow DPEs to do the exam (that has subsequently changed). Although the failure rate was high, it was not impossible to successfully complete a CFI initial with the FAA (case in point).

PruneJuice

If this is the case then it must have changed. It used to be a part 141 school would either recommend or not recommend a person for a rating. If you failed everything only the school would know about it and only the faa if the requested access to your file. The only way a fail would count with thee faa was with a de or a part 61 ride.

Are you sure you are not confusing a part 142 school?

hc0fitted

No dude, He is not confused about anything. A in house Part 141 EOC that is going to result in you receiving a certificate, or ratting after successful completion is just like going up with a DPE. If you fail it you may not get the pink slip but it will go on your record at OKC and can be easily looked up. Of course "stage checks " don't count against you because its the equivalent of just going up with your instructor for a another lesson in the PT 61 world. Thats why you saying doing your training 141 is better than 61 solely because of that fact that none of your training can go on your record is stupid/false. BTW I did training both 61 and 141.

E6-B

When I was a flight instructor there was a student at the school who was working on his CFI and failed 3 times before he passed. The examiner at the FSDO was known to be extremely tough. However, I don't think that examiner felt failing a checkride meant you were a horrible pilot/applicant it was a chance for someone to vette you and correct any deficiencies so you were just that much better when you passed.

We also had an instructor at the school who signed his students off for a total of 8 checkrides and they failed every single one. He was constantly concerned about money and only wanted to get his flight time in so he could get to Eagle.

So I agree standardization would help a lot, but there's plenty of guys out there who failed because they had a lazy instructor who wasn't really concerned with their success but rather about getting to fly that shiny jet. So I don't think it's fair to assume anyone with 3 failed checkrides is a total failure at aviation and should go get a job doing something else.

There is also that quotient of examiners who give passes away like candy, and also some that are totally unprofessional and fail people for ridiculous reasons.

So those of you out there with a perfect pass record try not to thumb your nose too hard at the guys who failed a few checkrides.