Pinnacle asking 7% from pilots
#331
I can't agree with this, for a lot of people this is a throw away job. It is nothing more than getting 121 time so you can put it on your resume and leave as soon as possible. Pinnacle is very fortunate that we choose to work for them at the ridiculous salary they pay us, not the other way around. It all depends on your perspective I guess. I have no doubt that the majority of pilots at Pinnacle could have a new flying job within 4 months. I realize all pay longevity would be lost but lets put things in proper perspective here, Pinnacle is not a good company, no one should feel fortunate to be working for Pinnacle. I understand in this market maybe some people might feel lucky to be steadily employed but are there people here that really feel fortunate to be employed by Pinnacle?
Please someone tell me what we are trying to save here? Unlike United and American there are no pensions, unlike United and American most of us are not here for a life long career and trying to save what is (or was in these two examples) a great company. We are just trying to save our own jobs, some of the worst in the industry? Jobs that the majority of us are trying to leave as quickly as possible? And ultimately we are going to probably get furloughed anyway and end up at the next regional that will only pay us less due to the downward pressure our 5% pay cut has exerted on the industry? No thanks.
Please someone tell me what we are trying to save here? Unlike United and American there are no pensions, unlike United and American most of us are not here for a life long career and trying to save what is (or was in these two examples) a great company. We are just trying to save our own jobs, some of the worst in the industry? Jobs that the majority of us are trying to leave as quickly as possible? And ultimately we are going to probably get furloughed anyway and end up at the next regional that will only pay us less due to the downward pressure our 5% pay cut has exerted on the industry? No thanks.
#332
The mainline partners will consider whether it would be more expensive to reallocate the flying or to give pncl a few extra dollars for their services. It would be hard to underbid pinnacle considering any new airline would have massive training costs etc etc.
#333
The REAL question anyway is whether you really think your 5% wage concessions affect avoiding bankruptcy or not. I don't believe it will. I think we are headed there sooner or later. It's kind of business as usual for airlines.
#334
Shy this statement shows how ignorant you really are. If you call pointing out the negative aspects of a bankrupcy fear mongering then you really don't have any understanding of what is going on here.
Obviously you have never worked at a company that has gone through something like this or you wouldn't make such an asenine statement.
Obviously you have never worked at a company that has gone through something like this or you wouldn't make such an asenine statement.
I have been through this, and as a result of the "education" of Comair going through BK, voting for cuts, and still shrinking, I know exactly how I would vote given this situation. You can spell it with two letters and one of them is N.
#335
Question: how many airlines have been in Chapter 11/13 over the last decade?
Second question: how many of those have been non-WO regional airlines that provide contract fee-for-departure lift?
Third question: how many have ceased operations and liquidated via Chapter 7?
FUD...
Second question: how many of those have been non-WO regional airlines that provide contract fee-for-departure lift?
Third question: how many have ceased operations and liquidated via Chapter 7?
FUD...
#336
Spoken like someone who has never really had to do this before. Trust me, when you get the letter from the attorneys advising you that you no longer have COBRA because the company liquidated in bankruptcy makes it darn tough to look your wife and your kids in the eye and wonder where your health care is going to come from. Or when you have to figure out how to pay your bills when you have to start over at a new company. I've voted against paycuts that management was claiming would save the company before, only to have it liquidate months later. Trust me it isn't a walk in the park as some would like to think it is.
As I have said before. I understand and respect why some vote no. I also understand why some are not interested in the possibility of going through the hell of a bankruptcy and possible liquidation. It is a tough decision either way. To demean anyone as "gutless" or a "coward" for voting yes is as ridiculous as criticizing those who vote no when you consider the implications of this decision.
As I have said before. I understand and respect why some vote no. I also understand why some are not interested in the possibility of going through the hell of a bankruptcy and possible liquidation. It is a tough decision either way. To demean anyone as "gutless" or a "coward" for voting yes is as ridiculous as criticizing those who vote no when you consider the implications of this decision.
I understand your sentiments but....are you implying even in the slightest that your pilot pay at any airline was even a sliver of a reason the airline liquidated? Your pay was to high to keep the airline in business and if you would work for cheaper it would still be in business?????
#337
Question: how many airlines have been in Chapter 11/13 over the last decade?
Second question: how many of those have been non-WO regional airlines that provide contract fee-for-departure lift?
Third question: how many have ceased operations and liquidated via Chapter 7?
FUD...
Second question: how many of those have been non-WO regional airlines that provide contract fee-for-departure lift?
Third question: how many have ceased operations and liquidated via Chapter 7?
FUD...
Big Sky?
#338
Let me add to this. The REAL question is will ANY wage concession avoid bankruptcy.
We all think very highly of ourselves but we are only a single part of the cost equation. Much smaller than aircraft costs, fuel and maintenance.
There isn't a single american airline out there from Legacy down to the smallest regional that the pilots get paid too much. SW pays their pilots more than our 777 Captains and they have posted a profit every quarter for the last 30 years except for what....two? Delta and American pilots get paid about the same right now and Delta posted a 1.4 BILLION dollar profit this year and American is BK. Pilot pay obviously didn't make or break them. Keep this in mind when anyone thinks their pilot pay will save the company's demise.
#339
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 67
Been through this before, not been through this before... It doesnt matter.
This is bigger than just "will this prevent bankruptcy at pinnacle". Its a statment to the industry as a whole in my opinion.
/Begin Rant
What are you worth as a pilot?
EVERYONE one working at Pinnacle, or any other regional for that matter, EVERYONE knew that they are entering an industry that is known for extreme ups, and extreme downs. Especially the side of the industry that we are in, the regionals.
No one looking at working at a regional ever said to themselves, "this is forever, I am going to be happy here!".
What happens is that people get cozy with their seniority and dont want to take the pay cut or cut in QOL by moving up to a major like they originally planned.
My point is, we ALL knew what we were getting in to when we signed up for this gig and we all assumed the risks. It is our responsibility to have our own back up plans just in case. Whats the advice we always give to young teens looking to aspire to become pilots? Get a degree in somthing other than aviation, THEN pursue the flying. We cant all be blind to our own advice.
Personally I have a plan B and plan B and a half. Just for situations like this.
In regards to the argument of if we vote no, we lose it all... I disagree.
If we vote yes, we do what pilots before us have done for years. We bow our heads to those who feed our supposed "addiction" to fly.
If we vote yes we bow our heads to those in corporate who are used to the idea of the "Let me fly your jet for free" pilots.
If we vote yes, we are continuing to prostitute, yes prostitute, our hard earned, highly skilled trade out to corporate mis-managment and greed.
As a group of high skilled, well trained, highly capable pilots who take tens of thousands of people from point A to point B safely multiple times a day, WE need to draw a line. because if we dont, we have NO RIGHT to come on to boards like this, go to Nightline, CNN or congress to complain. Because we have been, and would have continued to be the ones to blame.
Our industry treats pilots like dirt because when they shove our face in the sand with pay cuts or say "fly my plane for peanuts", and This is what SM is asking us to do now, those pilots before us said: "yessir, thankyou sir, let me keep flying for poverty wages sir, THANK YOU!"
I for one, say how dare you?
How dare you propose taking 5% away from my salary when I can just barely cover rent for a one bedroom apartment and purchase groceries based on what I make today? Where do you get the audacity to ask that of me? How dare you ask that of me, Sean Menke.
I paid close to $45,000 of my hard earned cash to pay for my flight training. It took me 6 years from my intro flight till I got my first regional job (I did not sell out to the first bidder and chose from three that offered me a job). I am not here to just so I can get my hands on a shiny plane, be it a 900, 200 400, saab or Superjumbostratoliner jet. I am here because its what I enjoy doing, and I do it well. It is my CAREER and deserve to be paid fairly for the level of experience and responsibilty that the position entails.
My 5% did not bring Pinnacle to where it is today. Management oversight did. Redundant positions, poor scheduling technuiqe, lack of proper maintenance and operations like running IAD with 5 Q400s based there with no reserve crews to back it up brought Pinnacle to where it is. And guess what, your 5% is not what got it here either.
Its time to take a stand and set a precedent that I can only hope other regional groups will follow. Look at history, look at how often the pay cuts actually helped and then look at how often then didnt.
What are you worth as a pilot? I can assure you it is more than what our industry standard is today, because people before us, in our position bowed their head and sold themselves out to poor managment decisions.
So look at youself in the mirror and honestly ask yourself:
"What is all of my training, skill and experience worth?"
I know what I am worth.
My vote is no.
/end rant
Disclaimer: Agree with me, or not... I didnt post this to hear you tell me I am wrong or right. I posted this because I feel this issue is bigger than the sum of pinnacle and it has always sicked me that we cant see that our worst enemy in this industry is us.
This is bigger than just "will this prevent bankruptcy at pinnacle". Its a statment to the industry as a whole in my opinion.
/Begin Rant
What are you worth as a pilot?
EVERYONE one working at Pinnacle, or any other regional for that matter, EVERYONE knew that they are entering an industry that is known for extreme ups, and extreme downs. Especially the side of the industry that we are in, the regionals.
No one looking at working at a regional ever said to themselves, "this is forever, I am going to be happy here!".
What happens is that people get cozy with their seniority and dont want to take the pay cut or cut in QOL by moving up to a major like they originally planned.
My point is, we ALL knew what we were getting in to when we signed up for this gig and we all assumed the risks. It is our responsibility to have our own back up plans just in case. Whats the advice we always give to young teens looking to aspire to become pilots? Get a degree in somthing other than aviation, THEN pursue the flying. We cant all be blind to our own advice.
Personally I have a plan B and plan B and a half. Just for situations like this.
In regards to the argument of if we vote no, we lose it all... I disagree.
If we vote yes, we do what pilots before us have done for years. We bow our heads to those who feed our supposed "addiction" to fly.
If we vote yes we bow our heads to those in corporate who are used to the idea of the "Let me fly your jet for free" pilots.
If we vote yes, we are continuing to prostitute, yes prostitute, our hard earned, highly skilled trade out to corporate mis-managment and greed.
As a group of high skilled, well trained, highly capable pilots who take tens of thousands of people from point A to point B safely multiple times a day, WE need to draw a line. because if we dont, we have NO RIGHT to come on to boards like this, go to Nightline, CNN or congress to complain. Because we have been, and would have continued to be the ones to blame.
Our industry treats pilots like dirt because when they shove our face in the sand with pay cuts or say "fly my plane for peanuts", and This is what SM is asking us to do now, those pilots before us said: "yessir, thankyou sir, let me keep flying for poverty wages sir, THANK YOU!"
I for one, say how dare you?
How dare you propose taking 5% away from my salary when I can just barely cover rent for a one bedroom apartment and purchase groceries based on what I make today? Where do you get the audacity to ask that of me? How dare you ask that of me, Sean Menke.
I paid close to $45,000 of my hard earned cash to pay for my flight training. It took me 6 years from my intro flight till I got my first regional job (I did not sell out to the first bidder and chose from three that offered me a job). I am not here to just so I can get my hands on a shiny plane, be it a 900, 200 400, saab or Superjumbostratoliner jet. I am here because its what I enjoy doing, and I do it well. It is my CAREER and deserve to be paid fairly for the level of experience and responsibilty that the position entails.
My 5% did not bring Pinnacle to where it is today. Management oversight did. Redundant positions, poor scheduling technuiqe, lack of proper maintenance and operations like running IAD with 5 Q400s based there with no reserve crews to back it up brought Pinnacle to where it is. And guess what, your 5% is not what got it here either.
Its time to take a stand and set a precedent that I can only hope other regional groups will follow. Look at history, look at how often the pay cuts actually helped and then look at how often then didnt.
What are you worth as a pilot? I can assure you it is more than what our industry standard is today, because people before us, in our position bowed their head and sold themselves out to poor managment decisions.
So look at youself in the mirror and honestly ask yourself:
"What is all of my training, skill and experience worth?"
I know what I am worth.
My vote is no.
/end rant
Disclaimer: Agree with me, or not... I didnt post this to hear you tell me I am wrong or right. I posted this because I feel this issue is bigger than the sum of pinnacle and it has always sicked me that we cant see that our worst enemy in this industry is us.
Last edited by Colgan Pilot; 01-23-2012 at 05:30 AM.
#340
Roll’n Thunder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Pilot
Posts: 3,838
Question: let's say that somehow the company and the union come to some sort of agreement that provides for 5% in overall savings from the pilot group without cutting wages or increasing insurance costs. Would that still draw such an adamant "no" vote from everyone?
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04-22-2012 10:33 AM