Originally Posted by AxialFlow

The Captain's training record is nothing but a red herring to divert attention away from the fact that both crew members were fatigued. It's much easier and quicker for the company and lawyers to lay blame on, and bury the issue with the pilots. Nobody would have a clue how to address the fatigue issue. It gets dismissed under the vague and sometimes impractical ideal of 'Professionalism'.

This boils down to just another slow news day.

Originally Posted by rickair7777

The families seem more concerned about his training record.

I personally would have to be pretty fatigued to pull the nose up in a stall...like unconscious.

Also the pilots were to blame for a lot of the fatigue in this case, especially the FO.

Originally Posted by Cruz5350

I think fatigue led them to the point of degraded speed then the o $hit moment happened and there was no going back.

Originally Posted by Cruz5350

I think fatigue led them to the point of degraded speed then the o $hit moment happened and there was no going back.

Originally Posted by spitfire

Let me share the short version of my story to illustrate how crazy things have become after 3407 concerning check rides.

In late 2007, I was hired as a STREET CAPTAIN to fly the Saab 340. I had about 3200 hours including a couple years of 135 time in King Airs and a type rating in the Citation V. I had zero 121 experience, so training was challenging, as well as IOE. But I applied myself, did well in training, of course passed all the check rides and was, I believe, a competent and well-liked captain. Like an idiot, I left Colgan in 2010 for a 91 gig that dried up. I left because I had been pushed back onto reserve (as FOs upgraded) and was making only $39k with no relief in sight. If I had toughed it out for a year, the ALPA contract would have raised my pay, although I'd still be on reserve.

When I resigned, the DO called me and asked "is there anything I can do to help?" That was nice, but I knew he couldn't fix the pay or work rules or any of the other stuff that people who read this board will know all about.

OK. Here's the kicker, folks. Colgan/Pinnacle/Mesaba won't even invite me for an interview to be a FIRST OFFICER now even though I was a successful CAPTAIN.

Why? Because 11 years ago (and more than 5,000 hours of flight time ago) I failed 4 check rides while doing ATP's semi-ridiculous Career Pilot Program. I won't go into the details of the rides (they were multi engine, instrument TWO TIMES, HOLY CRAP, and MEI (which was my initial CFI ride). It was all my fault, but it's more complicated than that. My instructor had 300 hours and, in retrospect, was more interested in building Seminole time flying with ATP candidates than working with me any my partner. As an experienced instructor myself now, I can safely say had no business giving instrument instruction at that time. But I trusted him when he signed me off. My fault. I had a huge personality problem with the DPE, but again, my fault. Other guys passed. I analyzed my experience and think I drew the right conclusions.

Since November 2000, I have had 100 percent success in check rides, CFII, ATP, CE-500 type rating, SF-340 type rating ... like 8 135 rides and 4 121 rides not counting Fed Rides, line checks and all the other jeopardy events Colgan captains were exposed to after 3407.

Recently, I interviewed at Compass and they grilled me for 20 minutes about these failures, even though I passed their special Delta/Fed-ex pilot knowledge test, the cognitive ability test, etc. and everything else I've mentioned. The fact that I have no violations, letters, problems with FAA and had flown successfully all over the Colgan system, to say nothing of my 135 experience .... well, that never came up.

Leaving Colgan was perhaps the stupidest thing I could have done for my 121 aspirations, thinking I could chill out in a 91 gig until SWA or DAL started hiring again. But on the other hand, it was getting really tough to support a wife, 3 kids and a dog as an airline captain making around $40k a year.

Maybe those failures were God's way of getting me to pick a more sensible career ... I don't know. (That was kind of a joke, but maybe not ... ) But the situation makes me crazy. I think about those failures, how avoidable each one of them was, every day. If I'd just stayed at my FBO and continued on with my instructors, who were excellent, I might not have had any failures, who knows? But I quit my job, took out a loan and went to ATP so I could get ahead faster to be an airline pilot.

And now I get to watch while 800-hour pilots who've never flown in a cloud, carried a load of ice, picked their way through TS get interviews jobs, and I can't do anything but wait for a change in hiring policy. But I guess I can't blame the airlines as long as they have applicants with zero failures or less than two in the current legal/media climate.

Eagle was the only company nice enough to at least send me a letter that they weren't interested. From everyone else, I just get silence.
I mean, not even freaking GoJets has responded to me. Talk about being persona non grata!

If you are considering some kind of fast-track training, make sure you check the quality of the instruction and the learning experience. There were good things about ATP, but at the time, there was almost no oversight of instructors. I would bet that things have changed in the decade since I finished. Hopefully, they have.

Originally Posted by Wingtips

coming from the guy with ABOUT 500 hours, begging for a job at great lakes, and has posted he has 3+ check ride failures....do you see a little of yourself in this guy? Sounds like he closed some doors for ya.

Originally Posted by Cruz5350

I'm at a tad over 500 hours not that that matters and I'm hardly begging for a job with Lakes it would just be nice to get. I don't see myself in this guy at all and to assimilate that him and I are similar because of a few busted rides is asanine. You don't know me and you don't know Renslow besides what you've read so don't pass judgement based off what you think you know.