More press over our wages.
09-16-2011, 03:20 PM
#41
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A320
Posts: 1,347
I think a lot of people do leave the regionals. I have maybe a dozen guys I'm friends with from the newhire days and about 1/3 have left the profession and I'm certain several more would now if the economy was in full swing and you could choose a job. The others have wealthy families or wives with good jobs. I can't think of one person I know that supports a family and has stayed on as a lifer FO at a regional.
09-16-2011, 03:34 PM
#42
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,197
Labbats
You do realize that 65 retirement is not just a "payoff" to the boomers; it is supported by all ICAO countries? Some of them looking, in the EU, to end any mandatory retirement age. Also, the termination of pension plans at all but AA also drove the decision on 65. Plus age 65 retirement has been an issue for a long time before you came on the scene. age 60 retirement was controversial when Pete Quesada instituted it by fiat w/o any medical basis. Get over it, seniority , which I actually think has done harm as well as good, is here to stay.
GF
You do realize that 65 retirement is not just a "payoff" to the boomers; it is supported by all ICAO countries? Some of them looking, in the EU, to end any mandatory retirement age. Also, the termination of pension plans at all but AA also drove the decision on 65. Plus age 65 retirement has been an issue for a long time before you came on the scene. age 60 retirement was controversial when Pete Quesada instituted it by fiat w/o any medical basis. Get over it, seniority , which I actually think has done harm as well as good, is here to stay.
GF
09-16-2011, 04:43 PM
#43
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,197
What many of those mainline pilots don't factor in is the utter stagnation and hopelessness of the regional ranks. You can't relate to it. When your time came to pay your dues the payoff was in sight. Now it's a mirage.
GF
09-16-2011, 06:19 PM
#44
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Joined APC: May 2007
Position: Fifth floor, window
Posts: 290
There's a well known behavior called learned helplessness. Typically this occurs after lengthy periods of uncertainty, among other stressors. I posit that many in the regional world are under the effects of of this condition; "It'll never get better". I agree it is a bad situation, and it may not improve, but indeed it may. Over the past couple of months there have been many mainstream articles about low pilot pay, certainly many more than ever before. I believe, among other strategies, this is something that should be capitalized upon, to provide a nugget that will leverage the other oft opined statement that "Americans will never care what pilots are paid".
09-16-2011, 09:13 PM
#45
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A320
Posts: 1,347
And one more rant, AA, UA have had pilots on furlough, double furlough in UA's case, for nearly 10 years. PAA recalled guys after 17 years, only to fold up their operation 5 years later. If you think 6 years as an F/O, even at $40K, "utter stagnation"; I'd submit you should recalibrate your concept of stagnation.
GF
GF
As far as age 65 is concerned, I fully understand those pilots who had their pension gutted to continue on past 60. But you and I both know of several that are in it because being a pilot defines them or they are just plain greedy.
I don't need epaulets to feel like myself. It's a shame that so many do. That more than money seems to be driving so many to fly until they're forced out.
09-17-2011, 10:05 AM
#46
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Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 453
It's a real shame how out of touch these gummers are with the world around them. No one is saying regional guys should make gazillions of dollars, but how about a cost of living increase? How about being able to get a half way decent place to live? $40K doesnt go too far these days to a young person or couple starting out.
I want to raise QOL and pay for everyone in the industry, not just whatever segment I'm going to fall into next. XJT is going through contract talks now, and I wan to make sure some reserve work rules are fixed. I'll probably never sit reserve here again but still wan to make sure it gets done. Why? Because it's the right thing to do.
I want to raise QOL and pay for everyone in the industry, not just whatever segment I'm going to fall into next. XJT is going through contract talks now, and I wan to make sure some reserve work rules are fixed. I'll probably never sit reserve here again but still wan to make sure it gets done. Why? Because it's the right thing to do.
Never-never-ever-evvvver say that. And you probably won't, don't know you from Adam, but still...
09-17-2011, 09:11 PM
#48
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Self employed
Posts: 3,048
This is one of the best summaries ever. Thanks.
This is all easily summed up:
#1: The public does not care about how little we get paid. They only care about cheaper tickets. This will never change no matter how illogical it seems.
#2: Airlines (Regional Airlines in particular) will always dangle a carrot which plenty of pilots will promptly run after. The latest "everybody at Eagle is guaranteed a job at AA" is a perfect example.
#3: Airlines (Regionals in particular) will continue relying on people's passion for flying to staff their aircraft. Granted, less people are taking the financial plunge these days..but there will always be kids with "daddy's money" who will push forward with flight training ignoring the costs vs returns.
#4: Any future pilot shortage will be offset by larger aircraft being flown for lower wages after all the current batch of pilots begin retiring...
It will take an act of Congress (re-regulation) to change any of this. Short of that...don't expect this industry to change for the better...ever. The looming pilot shortage, as real as it is will do nothing to change pay or QOL. It will simply force Airlines to invent new ways to pay us nothing and work us longer.
#1: The public does not care about how little we get paid. They only care about cheaper tickets. This will never change no matter how illogical it seems.
#2: Airlines (Regional Airlines in particular) will always dangle a carrot which plenty of pilots will promptly run after. The latest "everybody at Eagle is guaranteed a job at AA" is a perfect example.
#3: Airlines (Regionals in particular) will continue relying on people's passion for flying to staff their aircraft. Granted, less people are taking the financial plunge these days..but there will always be kids with "daddy's money" who will push forward with flight training ignoring the costs vs returns.
#4: Any future pilot shortage will be offset by larger aircraft being flown for lower wages after all the current batch of pilots begin retiring...
It will take an act of Congress (re-regulation) to change any of this. Short of that...don't expect this industry to change for the better...ever. The looming pilot shortage, as real as it is will do nothing to change pay or QOL. It will simply force Airlines to invent new ways to pay us nothing and work us longer.
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