Pncl fences
09-12-2011, 10:42 AM
#171
What’s it doing now?
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: 190CA
Posts: 726
Eats, Shoots and Leaves
The key to this discussion is the interpretation of this part of the award:
"For a period of five years beginning with the submission of the Integrated Seniority List, no Pinnacle pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position, and no pre-merger Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 129 Saab-340 captains. No pre-merger Mesaba pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless Colgan pilots maintain 152 Saab-340 captains. Minimum captain positions for Mesaba pilots will be permanently reduced by an equal amount for any reductions in Saab Captain positions in Minneapolis, Memphis, Detroit and New York. Minimum captain positions for Colgan pilots will be permanently reduced by an amount equal to any reductions in Washington-Dulles, Boston, Charleston and Houston.
8. If there are insufficient bidders for one pre-merger pilot group for a posted vacancy on one side of the fence during the five-year period, unfilled vacancies may be filled by pilots from the other pre-merger airline[s] in seniority order."
The way I read it is no premerger 9E will be awarded Saab captain until after all XJ and 9L premergers pass on it.
"For a period of five years beginning with the submission of the Integrated Seniority List, no Pinnacle pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position, and no pre-merger Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 129 Saab-340 captains. No pre-merger Mesaba pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless Colgan pilots maintain 152 Saab-340 captains. Minimum captain positions for Mesaba pilots will be permanently reduced by an equal amount for any reductions in Saab Captain positions in Minneapolis, Memphis, Detroit and New York. Minimum captain positions for Colgan pilots will be permanently reduced by an amount equal to any reductions in Washington-Dulles, Boston, Charleston and Houston.
8. If there are insufficient bidders for one pre-merger pilot group for a posted vacancy on one side of the fence during the five-year period, unfilled vacancies may be filled by pilots from the other pre-merger airline[s] in seniority order."
The way I read it is no premerger 9E will be awarded Saab captain until after all XJ and 9L premergers pass on it.
I read:
Mesaba is protected from pinnacle and colgan until mesaba meets the quota.
Colgan is only protected from mesaba until colgan meets the quota.
So one interpretation could be that once XJ parks all the saabs then pinnacle can bid the saab without restriction because colgan was only protected from mesaba.
Punctuation is important. It depends on how you read the first run-on sentence. If everything in between the two commas is a statement that can stand alone, then no pinnacle pilot can go to saab CA for 5 years. Period.
If you read everthing before the first comma as a quantifying statement for the whole paragraph, and the rest of that sentence as its own statement then things start to change. I think this may be the more correct way because the first part of the first sentence was meant to apply to the whole paragraph as well.
09-12-2011, 10:52 AM
#172
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Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 38
09-12-2011, 11:27 AM
#173
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Up Front
Posts: 1,628
I know the thread has drifted away from this topic a BIT, but Im not sure im reading the same thing others are. I can see the interpretation that bartok is getting but I actually see something different as well.
I read:
Mesaba is protected from pinnacle and colgan until mesaba meets the quota.
Colgan is only protected from mesaba until colgan meets the quota.
So one interpretation could be that once XJ parks all the saabs then pinnacle can bid the saab without restriction because colgan was only protected from mesaba.
Punctuation is important. It depends on how you read the first run-on sentence. If everything in between the two commas is a statement that can stand alone, then no pinnacle pilot can go to saab CA for 5 years. Period.
If you read everthing before the first comma as a quantifying statement for the whole paragraph, and the rest of that sentence as its own statement then things start to change. I think this may be the more correct way because the first part of the first sentence was meant to apply to the whole paragraph as well.
I read:
Mesaba is protected from pinnacle and colgan until mesaba meets the quota.
Colgan is only protected from mesaba until colgan meets the quota.
So one interpretation could be that once XJ parks all the saabs then pinnacle can bid the saab without restriction because colgan was only protected from mesaba.
Punctuation is important. It depends on how you read the first run-on sentence. If everything in between the two commas is a statement that can stand alone, then no pinnacle pilot can go to saab CA for 5 years. Period.
If you read everthing before the first comma as a quantifying statement for the whole paragraph, and the rest of that sentence as its own statement then things start to change. I think this may be the more correct way because the first part of the first sentence was meant to apply to the whole paragraph as well.
Here's the statement for the Q400:
"For a period of five years beginning with submission of the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Mesaba pilots may be awarded or displaced to a Q-400 captain unless Colgan pilots maintain 193 Q-400 captain positions."
And the 900:
"For a period of five years beginning with submission of the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions, and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 95 CRJ-900 captain positions."
And the 200:
"For a period of five years, beginning with the submission of the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-200 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 100 CRJ-200 captain positions and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-200 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 541 CRJ-200 captain positions."
And the infamous Saab statement:
"For a period of five years beginning with the submission of the Integrated Seniority List, no Pinnacle pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position, and no pre-merger Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 129 Saab-340 captains. No pre-merger Mesaba pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless Colgan pilots maintain 152 Saab-340 captains."
See how everytime an aircraft is listed, there is a distinct correlation to the other companies and the quota, except in the case of 9E and Saab captain. Even in the Saab statement when it talks about Colgan and Mesaba, he uses this distinction.
The syntax of that ", and" in the Saab statement is significant.
Last edited by Bartok; 09-12-2011 at 01:49 PM.
09-12-2011, 03:56 PM
#177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 687
I thought exactly the same as you when I first read it. It was reading the other statements that convinced me otherwise.
Here's the statement for the Q400:
"For a period of five years beginning with submission of the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Mesaba pilots may be awarded or displaced to a Q-400 captain unless Colgan pilots maintain 193 Q-400 captain positions."
And the 900:
"For a period of five years beginning with submission of the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions, and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 95 CRJ-900 captain positions."
And the 200:
"For a period of five years, beginning with the submission of the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-200 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 100 CRJ-200 captain positions and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-200 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 541 CRJ-200 captain positions."
And the infamous Saab statement:
"For a period of five years beginning with the submission of the Integrated Seniority List, no Pinnacle pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position, and no pre-merger Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 129 Saab-340 captains. No pre-merger Mesaba pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless Colgan pilots maintain 152 Saab-340 captains."
See how everytime an aircraft is listed, there is a distinct correlation to the other companies and the quota, except in the case of 9E and Saab captain. Even in the Saab statement when it talks about Colgan and Mesaba, he uses this distinction.
The syntax of that ", and" in the Saab statement is significant.
Here's the statement for the Q400:
"For a period of five years beginning with submission of the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Mesaba pilots may be awarded or displaced to a Q-400 captain unless Colgan pilots maintain 193 Q-400 captain positions."
And the 900:
"For a period of five years beginning with submission of the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions, and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 95 CRJ-900 captain positions."
And the 200:
"For a period of five years, beginning with the submission of the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-200 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 100 CRJ-200 captain positions and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-200 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 541 CRJ-200 captain positions."
And the infamous Saab statement:
"For a period of five years beginning with the submission of the Integrated Seniority List, no Pinnacle pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position, and no pre-merger Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 129 Saab-340 captains. No pre-merger Mesaba pilot may be awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless Colgan pilots maintain 152 Saab-340 captains."
See how everytime an aircraft is listed, there is a distinct correlation to the other companies and the quota, except in the case of 9E and Saab captain. Even in the Saab statement when it talks about Colgan and Mesaba, he uses this distinction.
The syntax of that ", and" in the Saab statement is significant.
09-12-2011, 04:05 PM
#178
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Up Front
Posts: 1,628
The question I have is whether premerger 9E can bid Saab captain.
09-12-2011, 04:08 PM
#179
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 227
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