mooney

guys I think you took me out of context....my comment had nothing to do with the 1500 hour rule, I was just answering the question why I would feel more comfortable having a 250 hour CFI teach a family member how to fly in a 152, but not necessarily be comfortable putting them in the back of an RJ with that same 250 hour (not 1500 hour) CFI in the right seat. Basically-simpler aircraft, systems, weather, physiology, airspace etc in the 152 training environment than the RJ "training" environment.

Swedish Blender

Several posters have stated that it's not up to the captain to help train the FOs. Let's be honest, IOE just makes sure they can get the airplane from point A to B. Captains, you do train the FOs...everyday (unless you are a D-bag). You influence, mold, help their thought process, and hopefully prepare them to be a captain themselves one day.

You probably don't want teach them the basics of flying, but to not want to help teach them how to fly that particular aircraft is just selfish. I'm on my third aircraft type in 4.5 years. I've been on my current one right at a year with 300 hours and 24 landings in it. The Vref speed at MLW is 165ish knots. Add your additives for wind,etc. and it gets pretty fast coming down the pipe. I'm happy to take any helpful hints from my captains regarding flying the plane.

.02

USMCFLYR

I think that there is a clear difference in the feelings that these particular posters have between mentoring and "instructing" as the term has been applied in this thread and many others like it. Mentoring has an aspect of instruction included, but it is the subject being instructed that matters.

USMCFLYR

dosbo

Mentoring is more about attitude, techniques, and policy interpretation. Instructing is more about basic airmanship/decision making which increases the workload for the Captain. The point of having a First Officer is to share the workload (not increase it) and as a redundant backup to the Captain in the event of thier incapacitation. If the FO is having to be instructed on basic flying skills/decision making then what will happen when this FO finds themselves single pilot in the North East in January going to LGA down to minimums after the Captain has had an anurism?

I bet the passengers are expecting to have a fully functioning back up system in that right seat.

Swedish Blender

I flew with some FOs I didn't think could fly a kite. Very few. Most were safe point A to B. I'm sure they could handle the airplane if something happened. They were not necessarily flying a good airplane but could get the job done. Was it unsafe for the pax? No, but the aircraft could be flown a lot better. IMO, you do have to teach some basic airmanship as it relates to your particular aircraft.
You were winged and knew how to fly. So are you telling me when you got to the RAG (FRS now?) you knew everything about flying Hornets? I'm sure you could fly it fine. But were you better employing it afterward? Apples and oranges I know but the premise is the same.

If these posters are saying their FOs are dangerous and can't fly at all, that's a training/hiring issue. If they are really unsafe then the captains need to turn them in to standards.

FlyJSH

Did you make your commute flight home?

USMCFLYR

The highlighted parts above are just plain scary if you are talking about pilots in a P121 operation. Imagine saying those things about a surgeon operating on your child or a lawyer defending you in court and tell me that you would have the same attitude. I know that I don't want the public defender who just passed the bar last month as my only resource!
And that is aircraft specific - like the mentoring that we spoke of earlier or even training/instruction as would be expected to be given by IOE CAs right?
I think that we are fairly clear on the difference of IOE/airline training and the training that others are speaking of in this thread and others.

You lost me on this point. The RAG/FRS is where you get you BASIC instruction in your fleet aircraft; so no....I didn't know anything about flying the Hornet when I showed up in the RAG/FRS. As I said in an earlier post - your point would be more in line with the FLEET IPs having to teach such BASIC principles as proper rendezvous', basic instrument flying, or proper positioning in standard formation flight. I have seen people sent back to training (or kicked out) because they did not get enough training in the RAG/FRS and were a burden to the fleet gun squadrons because they don't have the time or training alloted to work on basics; much like I doubt the operating cockpit of a P121 airliner is the place for basic training. I said this earlier too and I'll reemphasis here again: Think about the level of training and quality of training that the military pilots have had when they come out of pilot training, the things that they have already been through by the time they reach 300 hours for example and I wouldn't want that person anywhere near a P121 cockpit flying my friends and family around.

Just like the training command or RAG/FRS not giving enough instruction, it certainly is a training/hiring issue. They ought not be hiring piots with such low times/relative inexperience and they ought not need such extensive basic training once they get put ito a revenue generating P121 flight operation.

USMCFLYR

johnso29

And I agree with you. 121 operations is not a place for training someone to fly a sweptwing jet. I don't care what others say. Flight Instructing can teach a lot of situational awareness. I'd rather have a 1500 hour flight instructor in my right seat then a 500 hour puppy mill pilot.

Swedish Blender

USMC,

Just trying to point out that maybe these guys can't fly the CRJ/ERJ or whatever to the liking of the captain. Do they lose control? Just trying to figure out if they can't keep the wings level in a RJ or if it's they don't fly it well.

To me, saying you're giving basic instruction is teaching how to hold heading, turns, etc. If that is what everyone is saying, I can't imagine flying with those people.

Happy 4th BTW

saab2000

Just curious, but where do folks learn swept wing jets if not in the airline world? The flying slots in the military are really measured in the hundreds or low thousands, at best.

Most (quality) part 91 jobs involving jets are far more competitive than airline jobs and 135 jobs can be very sketchy, unless it's a reputable fractional, in which case it's also probably more competitive than an airline too.

Speaking of military, it would be interesting to find out the average time of the military pilots flying fighters and heavy jets. They seem to do it pretty successfully without requiring thousands of hours.

It's all in the selection and training IMHO, not necessarily in a metric set at an arbitrary number.

FWIW, I've flown with relatively low-time pilots might not be great because of low time, but they learned fast and do not require 'basic training'. They do great. And I've flown with 10,000 hour folks who scare the crap out of me.