9e/xj/9l sli
06-13-2011, 05:09 PM
#111
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,573
Not a knock on anyone but if we start taking each airframe and making a placeholder, what precedent does that set at the REGIONAL level. If the -900 is premium, what was the avro? What was the -200 in the early 2000's? The mindset has always been "more pax + more responsibility= more money" but that formula has coefficients of economy of scale, world factors, and managerial success. It all comes together to form Regionals vs. Majors. Those who have seniority to fly the larger aircraft will make more money. Those who get the experience under their belt AND a desire to leave have the ability to move to a major, where you are back to the fundamental formula of a larger aircraft and larger economy of scale results in potentially more earnings. A Saab driver does not necessarily have a better skill set than a -900 driver, but a Saab will make less than a -900 driver. The Q/-200 will be an interesting shakeout in time due to this mindset. If you recall the uproar over the Q rates were not from a Q driver being "better", but holding more responsibility.
Now, to complete this rant- take a look at the dc9-10 rates when the 900's showed up. Should there have been such a difference? NO, but the idea of "economy of scale" at the regional level (as compared to majors) is the only answer pilots can use as justification. We are simply paid an allowance by our parents (mainline). It's like we are helping the family by cutting the grass and doing yard work. Until we show that we are indeed "adults" in the market and are able to make our own profits (at risk flying, cost sharing,etc) while becoming an economy of scale the regional/mainline differential will remain at a farther spread than simply seat count.
Now, to complete this rant- take a look at the dc9-10 rates when the 900's showed up. Should there have been such a difference? NO, but the idea of "economy of scale" at the regional level (as compared to majors) is the only answer pilots can use as justification. We are simply paid an allowance by our parents (mainline). It's like we are helping the family by cutting the grass and doing yard work. Until we show that we are indeed "adults" in the market and are able to make our own profits (at risk flying, cost sharing,etc) while becoming an economy of scale the regional/mainline differential will remain at a farther spread than simply seat count.
06-13-2011, 05:43 PM
#112
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: CRJ 900 CA
Posts: 90
Well, I was told during my initial training in Woodford, England by the manager of the Avro program, that the Avros were a stop-gap airplane. Comair had the -200 orders locked up and Express had the EMBs locked up. NWA wanted a regional jet and Avro had an idle plant. They got them at a steal, and due the scope restriction, NWA got a regional jet with first class. The rest is a bad case of SJS, both by the companies, and unfortunately the eager young pilots too.
06-13-2011, 05:51 PM
#113
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,573
Well, I was told during my initial training in Woodford, England by the manager of the Avro program, that the Avros were a stop-gap airplane. Comair had the -200 orders locked up and Express had the EMBs locked up. NWA wanted a regional jet and Avro had an idle plant. They got them at a steal, and due the scope restriction, NWA got a regional jet with first class. The rest is a bad case of SJS, both by the companies, and unfortunately the eager young pilots too.
The -900 could be a scope stopgap if majors let the ropes fall on scope. What we see in current day is only a step in the marathon that is this industry. We need to react for the current, plot for the future, plan for what currently is unrealistic, and learn from the past.
06-13-2011, 05:58 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 224
Well, I was told during my initial training in Woodford, England by the manager of the Avro program, that the Avros were a stop-gap airplane. Comair had the -200 orders locked up and Express had the EMBs locked up. NWA wanted a regional jet and Avro had an idle plant. They got them at a steal, and due the scope restriction, NWA got a regional jet with first class. The rest is a bad case of SJS, both by the companies, and unfortunately the eager young pilots too.
06-13-2011, 06:00 PM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: Up Front
Posts: 1,628
I'll give a nod to that.
The -900 could be a scope stopgap if majors let the ropes fall on scope. What we see in current day is only a step in the marathon that is this industry. We need to react for the current, plot for the future, plan for what currently is unrealistic, and learn from the past.
The -900 could be a scope stopgap if majors let the ropes fall on scope. What we see in current day is only a step in the marathon that is this industry. We need to react for the current, plot for the future, plan for what currently is unrealistic, and learn from the past.
06-13-2011, 06:02 PM
#116
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,573
06-13-2011, 06:09 PM
#117
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Not a knock on anyone but if we start taking each airframe and making a placeholder, what precedent does that set at the REGIONAL level. If the -900 is premium, what was the avro? What was the -200 in the early 2000's? The mindset has always been "more pax + more responsibility= more money" but that formula has coefficients of economy of scale, world factors, and managerial success. It all comes together to form Regionals vs. Majors. Those who have seniority to fly the larger aircraft will make more money. Those who get the experience under their belt AND a desire to leave have the ability to move to a major, where you are back to the fundamental formula of a larger aircraft and larger economy of scale results in potentially more earnings. A Saab driver does not necessarily have a better skill set than a -900 driver, but a Saab will make less than a -900 driver. The Q/-200 will be an interesting shakeout in time due to this mindset. If you recall the uproar over the Q rates were not from a Q driver being "better", but holding more responsibility.
Now, to complete this rant- take a look at the dc9-10 rates when the 900's showed up. Should there have been such a difference? NO, but the idea of "economy of scale" at the regional level (as compared to majors) is the only answer pilots can use as justification. We are simply paid an allowance by our parents (mainline). It's like we are helping the family by cutting the grass and doing yard work. Until we show that we are indeed "adults" in the market and are able to make our own profits (at risk flying, cost sharing,etc) while becoming an economy of scale the regional/mainline differential will remain at a farther spread than simply seat count.
Now, to complete this rant- take a look at the dc9-10 rates when the 900's showed up. Should there have been such a difference? NO, but the idea of "economy of scale" at the regional level (as compared to majors) is the only answer pilots can use as justification. We are simply paid an allowance by our parents (mainline). It's like we are helping the family by cutting the grass and doing yard work. Until we show that we are indeed "adults" in the market and are able to make our own profits (at risk flying, cost sharing,etc) while becoming an economy of scale the regional/mainline differential will remain at a farther spread than simply seat count.
06-13-2011, 06:37 PM
#118
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: CRJ 900 CA
Posts: 90
The senior guys in the industry would sell everything to protect and further their career. As seen in how fast scope disappears when the company rattles their saber.
The junior guy know the bad places to work. But go there anyway for things like flying jets, and quick upgrades. In the past it was PFT. The larger regionals at the time were PFT, Comair, ASA, ExpressJet. Then it was no pay/hotel (no dig, just truth). Even now it's, I'll fly the 200 before the 1900.
We undercut ourselves, just as much as the old-timers.
06-13-2011, 06:53 PM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 224
The fault lies in both these people's hands.
The senior guys in the industry would sell everything to protect and further their career. As seen in how fast scope disappears when the company rattles their saber.
The junior guy know the bad places to work. But go there anyway for things like flying jets, and quick upgrades. In the past it was PFT. The larger regionals at the time were PFT, Comair, ASA, ExpressJet. Then it was no pay/hotel (no dig, just truth). Even now it's, I'll fly the 200 before the 1900.
We undercut ourselves, just as much as the old-timers.
The senior guys in the industry would sell everything to protect and further their career. As seen in how fast scope disappears when the company rattles their saber.
The junior guy know the bad places to work. But go there anyway for things like flying jets, and quick upgrades. In the past it was PFT. The larger regionals at the time were PFT, Comair, ASA, ExpressJet. Then it was no pay/hotel (no dig, just truth). Even now it's, I'll fly the 200 before the 1900.
We undercut ourselves, just as much as the old-timers.
All I am saying is that you can blame a young entry level pilot for either "taking" your flying, or taking from your tax paying wallet by drawing unemployment...
06-14-2011, 03:56 AM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: CRJ Captain
Posts: 1,406
Can anyone else believe what this has turned into? I am not even stressing about it anymore - if they get the list done sometime in 2011, good for them, if not - thats cool too.
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