selcal

Just checked opentime for cr2ATL and counted 5 two day trips that were not naps. Apparently this month the company made tons of naps, who knows if that will continue.

As the others have said they definitely have a hard-on with 4 day trips. SH or CT will come into recurrent and profess that 4 day trips are the most efficient (actually SH said 5 days were, but they are not allowed). They will come up with the stupidest reasons why, and the reasons change every month. The best thing we can do is negotiate a specific trip mix, or raise the min day. The company will argue till they are blue the face how 3 day trips are inefficient, however flying a 4 day trip with a 40 hour layover in columbus, ga is somehow very efficient..................

RamenNoodles

Let me add that we now have the ability under the PBS LOA to drop PORTIONS of our trips. Let's say you are awarded 4 days and can't swap for something else. You can break up your own pairings, but you can't simply drop those portions into open time; they have to be picked up by another pilot.

dojetdriver

OK ASEA types, "listen up"!. WE GET THAT! WE GET THAT ASA MANAGEMENT WILL BE RUNNING THE SHOW!!!! That's not the point of what I'm getting at. What I'm saying, that you're NOT hearing, is that although those 2 days may not have been in the "pool" for the initial bid, with line bid conflict they will become available in the pool. Read the end for a little more on this.

We suffer the same issue, 4 days are the most efficient for the company for a bunch of reasons. Staging, daily productivity, etc.

I just went into open time, IAH is showing 45 open 1 and 2 day pairings. Before the ILIW opened up, it was more (way more) than that.

Well, that's a good thing. XJT has had this for years. And to key on what I said above, we could advertise portions of trip for pick up as well. So a guy could advertise/drop days 3 and 4 of a 4 day to be home on night 2, THEN go back in and pick up a 2 day due to the massive amount of open time available. So now he has back to back 2 days instead of a 4 day. The amount of flexibility with the line bid system just can't be compared to the PBS one shot deal with limited flexibility later. Especially if what you bid for has to be altered for whatever reason. Family, change of plans, whatever.

Nevets

I suspect that there are many at ASA who aren't even interested in learning how our line bidding works with our work rules to see if its better just as there are many at XJT who aren't interested in learning if the ASA PBS system under their work rules either.

So far, from what I have learned is that the ASA PBS system with their work rules does allow some degree of consecutive days off as our system and work rules but that the flexibility is NO WHERE NEAR what ours allows. But it does sound like with their PBS system and work rules they have WAY MORE flexibility than their old system and therefore they think that it must be more flexible than our system.

As of right now, even if I concede their vacation bidding is on par with ours, I still feel that our system and work rules are way superior than their PBS and work rules.

The thing of it is, that I doubt the joint contract will be their rules or ours. It will be a whole new set of rules so all of this comparison may be moot anyways.

captlonestar

Thanks for all the feedback guys. It sounds like you really like the new system which is good. The issue I'm sort of worried about is the company making everything look great for the next year or so to entice XJT pilots to vote for PBS, and then when it suits them, they can squeeze the pilot group to get the savings that they want by manipulating the pairings. I think the only way most of use will vote for PBS will be if ALPA has a guaranteed say in the the pairing construction. Otherwise I'm still probably a no vote. We've got a lot to learn and plenty of time, so hopefully we will come to a conclusion that is good for everyone. Just to let you ASA guys know, if for some reason XJT pilots voted against PBS, you guys would be very happy with our current line bid process. So it really will be a win-win situation for y'all if something was to happen. Thanks for the feedback.

oldcarpilot

Historically at ASA this is not the case. Can you trade a 4 day for a 2 day at XJT? At ASA you can only trade down 1 day.

JustAnotherPLT

On our system, if you have a trip conflict with something, it drops the WHOLE trip, not the conflicting portion. This is why you wouldn't see a bunch of two days pop up. Anything else you would like to know about ASA or PBS system? I think once you look at it more you'll see it's a nice way to bid. You can fear what management is going to do all you want, at least with this you control the month not them.

dojetdriver

Yes, if fact you can trade two 4 days for a single 4 day dropping an entire 4 day trip. You can trade two 4 days for a ONE day trip dropping 7 days off your schedule. Or any combination thereof. As long as you don't go below the "trading floor" (usually 60 hours) it will let drop whatever as long as the coverage is there. Even that can be fixable with a simple advertisement. The LIW's are highly fluid/dynamic. Just because it wouldn't execute on the first try, keep trying as when guys pick stuff up if drives the reserve coverage back up.

I think if you dealt with XJT's system, you'd see it's a nice way bid/control/manipulate as well. I''ll say it again, the ASA PBS system SEEMS to be pretty good, especially compared to what you guys had. But remember, everything is relative. Because we have a lot of control as well, NOT them. We don't have to "fear" management at all. We can say "alright, you wanna had me a crap sandwich? I'll EASILY fix that in the LIW's"

Truman_Sparks

I think the XJT guys need to remember that it is not what we piolts decide to pick that we magically are going to get! It's not whose item we pick, like ASA's bidding or XJT's. It's what will be NEGOTIATED with management. We can "pick" the World's best ever bidding andscheduling system that ever pilot back flips over. Getting it in the JCBA is a totally different animal. Also, anything better than the cost number that they have now must be compromised somewhere else. A negotiation comes down to give and take. Dumping PBS will cost the pilot group elsewhere. Also, Skywest/ASA management will never allow the dumping a 4 day for a 1 day, and certainly won't pay someone the original value to do so. Also, thy don't run enough reserves to ever have enough coverage to do so. They will just make EVERY DAY a red arrow day!

dojetdriver

Agree with all this.

I think what the ASA guys need to realize is, guess what? XJT guys have ALSO been through multiple negotiation cycles and understand the game. XJT guys have ALSO been through a concession. Refresh my memory, when was the last concession cycle at ASA? I'm not talking your downgrades/furloughs a while back, I'm talking about the cutting of pay and/or workrules. Because as it is now, accepting the ASA CBA as it is now is a concession. That concession will be for the majority of pilots of the combined list. So who's gonna have more votes when it comes down to accepting a JCBA that might be concessionary? Jerry is too far into this thing to back out know. Contrary to what the ASA pilot who went off the reservation on FI thinks, Jerry wants this thing done ASAP to start seeing the savings of eliminating the redundancies that exist. So dare I say, the pilots have a slight bit of leverage this time around. Which rarely happens.

I'll extend the SAME offer to you as I've done for guys ASA pilots on FI, as well as our message board. I'll gladly do a head to head bullet point comparison of the ASA and XJT CBA's for the purpose of showing where both are strong, and both are weak. Especially the hours of service, scheduling, and compensation sections. It's funny, I have yet to see a single ASA pilot take me up on that offer.

Why on earth would they? NOBODY has said that an XJT pilot trading down his line in the LIW's get's pay protected. The pilot takes the associated credit loss with trade. Nobody has said otherwise, here or anywhere else.

And you guys aren't paying attention. There is a limited amount of positive reserve coverage at the beginning of the LIW's. But when guys start picking stuff up, it drives the coverage of the negative days to positive so that OTHER guys can start trading down/dropping. The "red arrow" thing isn't nearly as much as a big deal under the XJT system as it is the ASA system.