Controller turned back on Comair departure
08-30-2006, 05:54 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,151
I am not saying not to, that is up to the NTSB on who to blame. I am not putting blame on anyone. All I am saying, aviation used to be all about safety, all the things that you or I do we do for a reason, we have redundancy so we can catch each others mistakes. Now aviation including the FAA is all about cost. The controller cleared the aircraft for the right runway and had to go on doing other work, it’s not the controllers fault. All I was saying is if ATC had the staffing that they are supposed to, the controller could have been looking out the window and maybe just maybe it could have been prevented, since it was in 1993 at LEX.
ACN: 256788 (76 of 130)
Time / Day
Date : 199311
Local Time Of Day : 0601 To 1200
Day : Sat
Assessments
Primary Problem : Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident : Pilot Deviation
Narrative
ACFT WAS CLRED FOR IMMEDIATE TKOF (TFC INSIDE THE MARKER) ON RWY 22. WE TAXIED ONTO RWY AND TOLD TWR WE NEEDED A MOMENT TO CHK OUR DEP ROUTING WITH OUR WX RADAR (STORMS IN THE AREA, RAINING AT THE ARPT). WE REALIZED OUR HDG WAS NOT CORRECT FOR ASSIGNED RWY AND AT THAT MOMENT TWR CALLED US TO CANCEL TKOF CLRNC BECAUSE WE WERE LINED UP ON RWY 26. WE TAXIED CLR AND HELD SHORT OF RWY 22 FOR LNDG TFC. WE TOOK OFF ON RWY 22 AND PROCEEDED WITHOUT INCIDENT. POSSIBLE CONTRIBUTING FACTORS WERE POOR VISIBILITY AND WX (RAIN), CONFUSING RWY INTXN AND TWR'S REQUEST FOR AN IMMEDIATE TKOF. SUGGEST POSSIBLE WARNING PAGE (SIMILAR TO HOUSTON HOBBY) TO CLARIFY MULTIPLE RWY ENDS.
Synopsis
FLC OF AN MLG ACR ACFT INADVERTENTLY TAXIED INTO POS FOR TKOF ON THE WRONG RWY.
ACN: 256788 (76 of 130)
Time / Day
Date : 199311
Local Time Of Day : 0601 To 1200
Day : Sat
Assessments
Primary Problem : Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident : Pilot Deviation
Narrative
ACFT WAS CLRED FOR IMMEDIATE TKOF (TFC INSIDE THE MARKER) ON RWY 22. WE TAXIED ONTO RWY AND TOLD TWR WE NEEDED A MOMENT TO CHK OUR DEP ROUTING WITH OUR WX RADAR (STORMS IN THE AREA, RAINING AT THE ARPT). WE REALIZED OUR HDG WAS NOT CORRECT FOR ASSIGNED RWY AND AT THAT MOMENT TWR CALLED US TO CANCEL TKOF CLRNC BECAUSE WE WERE LINED UP ON RWY 26. WE TAXIED CLR AND HELD SHORT OF RWY 22 FOR LNDG TFC. WE TOOK OFF ON RWY 22 AND PROCEEDED WITHOUT INCIDENT. POSSIBLE CONTRIBUTING FACTORS WERE POOR VISIBILITY AND WX (RAIN), CONFUSING RWY INTXN AND TWR'S REQUEST FOR AN IMMEDIATE TKOF. SUGGEST POSSIBLE WARNING PAGE (SIMILAR TO HOUSTON HOBBY) TO CLARIFY MULTIPLE RWY ENDS.
Synopsis
FLC OF AN MLG ACR ACFT INADVERTENTLY TAXIED INTO POS FOR TKOF ON THE WRONG RWY.
I hear ya Miker, and I totally agree with you. You posted an informed intelligent post. Checks and Balances, and two heads are always better than one.
08-30-2006, 07:53 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 183
Hey Mike1369
"Aviation used to be all about safety."
Where the hell have you been the last 60 years? Aviation has never been all about safety...there has always been a compromise between safety and cost.
Check out the history of radar, TCAS, etc...it takes blood to force change.
ALPA demanded, to deaf ears, a nationwide radar system years before the TWA/UAL midair over the grand canyon.
Same w/ TCAS--just like radar, we had the TCAS technology many years before it was implemented. It took the midair in San Diego to get politicians to force the FAA.
Same goes for reinforced cockpit doors...I hope you get the idea!
It is no different than automobile safety...Blood causes media hype which gets the public involved which gets the politicians involved...This crap is pretty elementary.
There is a finite amount of cash out there, but infinite safety gadgets that we could have. We have to be smart w/ the resources or we will price ourselves out of business. 1 accident every five years--too many if my family was involved...but pretty damn good record! Safest form of trans!
Miker1369, atleast you have one fan out there...Skygirl. (Skygirl and I have a past...so forgive me for digressing). She is brilliant:
"checks and balances..." Not applicable in this case. That's for branches of government--to prevent abuses of power. Like liberal democrats taking my money in the form of taxes and redistributing wealth to people that have an aversion to work.
"two heads are always better than one." Not much brainstorming of ideas required by two controlleres to see the error...more appropriate: 4 eyes are better than 2!
By the way Skygirl, what a tragedy today in SF...it took alot of digging to discover the nationality of the nutjob...the liberal national media would not report the fact the driver was Afghani. I got curious when they reported the guy was from Freemont. But, I had to search the web to find his nationality. Seems the melting pot thing ain't working out to well in Cali...seems the immigrants just form their own communities. My question is, why did he not go on his rampage in his own community of Freemont? Do you think if a white guy drove his car over the sidewalks of Freemont he would be charged with a hate crime??
Where the hell have you been the last 60 years? Aviation has never been all about safety...there has always been a compromise between safety and cost.
Check out the history of radar, TCAS, etc...it takes blood to force change.
ALPA demanded, to deaf ears, a nationwide radar system years before the TWA/UAL midair over the grand canyon.
Same w/ TCAS--just like radar, we had the TCAS technology many years before it was implemented. It took the midair in San Diego to get politicians to force the FAA.
Same goes for reinforced cockpit doors...I hope you get the idea!
It is no different than automobile safety...Blood causes media hype which gets the public involved which gets the politicians involved...This crap is pretty elementary.
There is a finite amount of cash out there, but infinite safety gadgets that we could have. We have to be smart w/ the resources or we will price ourselves out of business. 1 accident every five years--too many if my family was involved...but pretty damn good record! Safest form of trans!
Miker1369, atleast you have one fan out there...Skygirl. (Skygirl and I have a past...so forgive me for digressing). She is brilliant:
"checks and balances..." Not applicable in this case. That's for branches of government--to prevent abuses of power. Like liberal democrats taking my money in the form of taxes and redistributing wealth to people that have an aversion to work.
"two heads are always better than one." Not much brainstorming of ideas required by two controlleres to see the error...more appropriate: 4 eyes are better than 2!
By the way Skygirl, what a tragedy today in SF...it took alot of digging to discover the nationality of the nutjob...the liberal national media would not report the fact the driver was Afghani. I got curious when they reported the guy was from Freemont. But, I had to search the web to find his nationality. Seems the melting pot thing ain't working out to well in Cali...seems the immigrants just form their own communities. My question is, why did he not go on his rampage in his own community of Freemont? Do you think if a white guy drove his car over the sidewalks of Freemont he would be charged with a hate crime??
Last edited by CargoBob; 08-30-2006 at 07:57 PM.
08-30-2006, 08:22 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,151
[QUOTE=CargoBob;57086
Miker1369, atleast you have one fan out there...Skygirl. (Skygirl and I have a past...so forgive me for digressing). She is brilliant:
[/QUOTE]
I have no past with you. Quit flattering yourself. I wouldn't say that skipping kindergarten makes you brilliant, but if you say so! You, after all, know everything!
Keep bragging, and blowing your hot air. It's amusing....for about 2 seconds. Keep bragging about how much money you make... too bad for you that the pax guys make less than you do, but get more women. Maybe they have better people (and female) skills, and the chicks just dig that more than you or your paycheck...
Miker1369, atleast you have one fan out there...Skygirl. (Skygirl and I have a past...so forgive me for digressing). She is brilliant:
[/QUOTE]
I have no past with you. Quit flattering yourself. I wouldn't say that skipping kindergarten makes you brilliant, but if you say so! You, after all, know everything!
Keep bragging, and blowing your hot air. It's amusing....for about 2 seconds. Keep bragging about how much money you make... too bad for you that the pax guys make less than you do, but get more women. Maybe they have better people (and female) skills, and the chicks just dig that more than you or your paycheck...
08-30-2006, 08:44 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,151
By the way Miker, don't mind CargoBob. He gets his jollies by coming on here and picking fights with everyone. He has such a marvelous, happy, life... and that is why he comes here to rant. He particularly likes to pick on women. I notice that he doesn't respond to a couple of male airline pilots who have shut him down.
08-31-2006, 01:48 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 903
I'm glad you guys aren't crucifying the controller. Some of the guys over at JC would love to crucify this guy for the crew's lack of SA.
The fact remains, the controller told them to taxi to 22. They taxi to what they say is 22, and state ready for departure on "22." The controller, knowing that the pilots surely know where they are located. . . clears them for TO at 22. The crew takes off from 26, not even noticing they mistakeningly are on the wrong RWY.
The line of sight from the TWR to both 22 and 26 are very similar. In a low light situation, being fatigued, it very well may have appeared that they "looked" to be holding short of 22.
I ask those of you crucifying the controller, and asking for checks in balances, to step back and look at what happened.
The checks and balances were there. The primary function of a controller is to ensure seperation of air traffic. Bottom line. Controllers are not there to babysit and make sure that pilots taxi to the right runway, ESPECIALLY not at a Class D (or is KLEX class C?) field at 6am, when they are the only departing traffic, and no arrivals are expected for a number of hours. So long as the local controller made sure no runway incursions would occur, and that no one was going to land on top of the RJ as it started their roll. . . he did his job just fine.
The only 4 eyeballs that could of stopped this from happening were inside that cockpit.
The FAA is failing the American public, not just the travelling public, by their ignorance over the past years. A shortage of manpower has been expected, and expressed by NATCA for years. But what happens? The FAA says we are crying for more money. No, not quite. We want bodies, we want bodies in the facilities to take the seats of the guys who are leaving the careerfield. So what does the FAA do? They impose a B-scale on all new hires. A 30% reduction in pay from the previous generation. Well guess what FAA. I'll have a jolly time tell you to F-off when you call me for my 2 day lead time to report to OKC. The travelling public is ignorant when it comes to the fight of controllers, for more bodies, and more technology implementation. Nothing happens, and no fingers are pointed until something like this happens. . . and to compound it. . .it wasn't even a mid air, or a runway incursion associated with traffic.
Did any of you guys call your House Representative over the past 6 months? Have you guys visited www.fairfaa.com ? How about just www.natca.org ? I'm guessing no. Because NATCA was unable to get enough of the public to actually pay attention to what is happening to THEIR, yup, THEIR, National Airspace System. Thanks America Public.
How about this, will you call them now? Voice your concern over YOUR National Airspace System?
/steps off of his soapbox.
But back to the unfortunate events of this weekend,
It was a lapse of concentration, and loss of situational awareness by the only two individuals that could of stopped it.
The fact remains, the controller told them to taxi to 22. They taxi to what they say is 22, and state ready for departure on "22." The controller, knowing that the pilots surely know where they are located. . . clears them for TO at 22. The crew takes off from 26, not even noticing they mistakeningly are on the wrong RWY.
The line of sight from the TWR to both 22 and 26 are very similar. In a low light situation, being fatigued, it very well may have appeared that they "looked" to be holding short of 22.
I ask those of you crucifying the controller, and asking for checks in balances, to step back and look at what happened.
The checks and balances were there. The primary function of a controller is to ensure seperation of air traffic. Bottom line. Controllers are not there to babysit and make sure that pilots taxi to the right runway, ESPECIALLY not at a Class D (or is KLEX class C?) field at 6am, when they are the only departing traffic, and no arrivals are expected for a number of hours. So long as the local controller made sure no runway incursions would occur, and that no one was going to land on top of the RJ as it started their roll. . . he did his job just fine.
The only 4 eyeballs that could of stopped this from happening were inside that cockpit.
The FAA is failing the American public, not just the travelling public, by their ignorance over the past years. A shortage of manpower has been expected, and expressed by NATCA for years. But what happens? The FAA says we are crying for more money. No, not quite. We want bodies, we want bodies in the facilities to take the seats of the guys who are leaving the careerfield. So what does the FAA do? They impose a B-scale on all new hires. A 30% reduction in pay from the previous generation. Well guess what FAA. I'll have a jolly time tell you to F-off when you call me for my 2 day lead time to report to OKC. The travelling public is ignorant when it comes to the fight of controllers, for more bodies, and more technology implementation. Nothing happens, and no fingers are pointed until something like this happens. . . and to compound it. . .it wasn't even a mid air, or a runway incursion associated with traffic.
Did any of you guys call your House Representative over the past 6 months? Have you guys visited www.fairfaa.com ? How about just www.natca.org ? I'm guessing no. Because NATCA was unable to get enough of the public to actually pay attention to what is happening to THEIR, yup, THEIR, National Airspace System. Thanks America Public.
How about this, will you call them now? Voice your concern over YOUR National Airspace System?
/steps off of his soapbox.
But back to the unfortunate events of this weekend,
It was a lapse of concentration, and loss of situational awareness by the only two individuals that could of stopped it.
Last edited by surreal1221; 08-31-2006 at 02:08 AM.
08-31-2006, 03:48 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Jet Pilot
Posts: 797
Whether there is one controller on duty or 100 controllers on duty, the final say as to the safe operation of an aircraft still rests with the pilot in command.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see increased staffing of ATC facilities. However, unless the controller violated and SOP I don't think the NTSB is going to put much blame on him/her.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see increased staffing of ATC facilities. However, unless the controller violated and SOP I don't think the NTSB is going to put much blame on him/her.
08-31-2006, 04:27 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,151
I didn't see one person crucifying or blaming the controller here! Jeezuz, here is a perfect example of why I left APC the last time, because of the innane ramblings of a few people who respond to you without actually "reading" your post or what it meant. Perhaps some of you skipped over your critical and analytical thinking and writing courses while at university.
Miker, as you know, if you actually "read" his post, is an ATC himself. The FAA admitted publicly that they violated their own policy! How many times do they not admit, or get caught, violating their own policy? Can't you knee jerk respondents see that while yes, it appears that the pilots were at error here, that maybe, just maybe, another set of eyes in the tower (by the way CargoBob, your eyes are part of your head, hence two heads are better than one) possibly could have alerted the pilots that they were on the wrong runway? And yes, that is called "check and balances"....I have a plane to catch so don't bother trying to pick more arguments with me, because you'll be talking to yourself like the folks down on Market street do. Go have a ****ing match amongst yourselves. Hope you have fun.
Miker, as you know, if you actually "read" his post, is an ATC himself. The FAA admitted publicly that they violated their own policy! How many times do they not admit, or get caught, violating their own policy? Can't you knee jerk respondents see that while yes, it appears that the pilots were at error here, that maybe, just maybe, another set of eyes in the tower (by the way CargoBob, your eyes are part of your head, hence two heads are better than one) possibly could have alerted the pilots that they were on the wrong runway? And yes, that is called "check and balances"....I have a plane to catch so don't bother trying to pick more arguments with me, because you'll be talking to yourself like the folks down on Market street do. Go have a ****ing match amongst yourselves. Hope you have fun.
08-31-2006, 04:38 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: ERJ 170
Posts: 737
I would like to see the transcripts from the tower and the CVR.
On defense of the FAA, I periodicly get info via email and snail mail about runway incursions and the like. Info on airport, taxiway and runway markings are provided in these briefs.
Until we get the final report from the NTSB, we should not run to blame anyone. It is bad enough the media likes to throw out headlines like: Control tower turned back on Comair departure. Talk about tasteless and useless, that is what that is.
On defense of the FAA, I periodicly get info via email and snail mail about runway incursions and the like. Info on airport, taxiway and runway markings are provided in these briefs.
Until we get the final report from the NTSB, we should not run to blame anyone. It is bad enough the media likes to throw out headlines like: Control tower turned back on Comair departure. Talk about tasteless and useless, that is what that is.
08-31-2006, 06:17 AM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 94
I think most of you are missing the point; I have blamed no controller, no pilot, no individual; it is always many things that contributed to a crash. If I was going to blame anyone, it would not be the controller, he/she was doing everything they where supposed to, FAA management is the one that screwed up there own regulations. All I have said and continue to say is, we are undermanned, while there used to be two in that facility, now there is one doing everything. Having two in the tower might not have made a difference with ComAir, but it could have.
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/08/30/faa.pdf
Some of you keep saying LEX is slow, but it really is not when there is one person doing everything. Here is the following scheduled A/C flights on a normal day, this does not include Business, Cargo or charter flights.
1. DAL5230 to CVG 6:30 A.M.(Clearance from tower around 6:15)
2. DAL5470 to LGA 6:00 A.M.
3. USA2369 to CLT 5:30 A.M.
4. AAL4449 to ORD 6:38 A.M.(Clearance from tower around 6:23)
5. AAL3882 to DFW 6:00 A.M.
6. NWA5888 to DTW 6:34 A.M.(Clearance from tower around 6:19)
7. UAL6819 to ORD 6:00 A.M.
8. COA2370 to CLE 5:55 A.M.
9. COA2274 to IAH 6:40 A.M.(Clearance from tower around 6:25)
So that is around 9 flights, understand just because the media keeps saying tower controller, does not mean he/she is only working the tower. So again it is not that easy for 1 person to work all the tower functions, and work radar 30 or 40 miles from the airport and up to 10,000 feet. It is not just the little airports either, the big ones have also seen the staffing numbers reduced.
Surreal1221, yes I did all those things , I have been at NATCA in Washington, I have and continue to write my letters, I live and work with what we are going through everyday.
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/08/30/faa.pdf
Some of you keep saying LEX is slow, but it really is not when there is one person doing everything. Here is the following scheduled A/C flights on a normal day, this does not include Business, Cargo or charter flights.
1. DAL5230 to CVG 6:30 A.M.(Clearance from tower around 6:15)
2. DAL5470 to LGA 6:00 A.M.
3. USA2369 to CLT 5:30 A.M.
4. AAL4449 to ORD 6:38 A.M.(Clearance from tower around 6:23)
5. AAL3882 to DFW 6:00 A.M.
6. NWA5888 to DTW 6:34 A.M.(Clearance from tower around 6:19)
7. UAL6819 to ORD 6:00 A.M.
8. COA2370 to CLE 5:55 A.M.
9. COA2274 to IAH 6:40 A.M.(Clearance from tower around 6:25)
So that is around 9 flights, understand just because the media keeps saying tower controller, does not mean he/she is only working the tower. So again it is not that easy for 1 person to work all the tower functions, and work radar 30 or 40 miles from the airport and up to 10,000 feet. It is not just the little airports either, the big ones have also seen the staffing numbers reduced.
Surreal1221, yes I did all those things , I have been at NATCA in Washington, I have and continue to write my letters, I live and work with what we are going through everyday.
Last edited by miker1369; 08-31-2006 at 06:37 AM.
08-31-2006, 06:26 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,982
Skygirl - I am assuming that where your ID says you are pax seat filler, that means you are a passenger, right? And I know a lot of the pax guys here can back me up when I say, with all due respect, that when it comes to aviation, passengers (and by extension the vast majority of the American public) are dumbassess. Sitting in a seat once a month or once a week or once a day does not make you an expert on the NAS, airline SOPs or even the basics of how an airplane works (ever seen Jay Leno ask people at the airport what the wings on an airplane are for?
) About the only thing it makes you qualified to spout off about is the quality of the pretzels or the temperature of the diet coke. So, with all due respect, you might get more respect and less flack around here (i am at Airline PILOT Central right? If my browser took me to Airline PASSENGER Central again Im going to be pis$ed) if you actually had qualifications that backed up your ranting and cheerleading.
) About the only thing it makes you qualified to spout off about is the quality of the pretzels or the temperature of the diet coke. So, with all due respect, you might get more respect and less flack around here (i am at Airline PILOT Central right? If my browser took me to Airline PASSENGER Central again Im going to be pis$ed) if you actually had qualifications that backed up your ranting and cheerleading.
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