Why they do that? a Q&A with NY approach.
11-29-2010, 12:16 PM
#71
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Self employed
Posts: 3,048
I've got a buddy who's a controller a Minneapolis Center. He said that half the time there just talking to the guy next to them and miss the call. Sorta like we do......
The one I don't get is when we check on 3 or 4 times and get no response and the controller issues instructions to another airplane. If he would just say, "xxxx standby" we wouldn't keep calling. I don't know if he/she has heard or if I have a radio problem or what.
It results in a lot of blocked transmissions and needless waste of valuable airtime, especially on the east coast.
The one I don't get is when we check on 3 or 4 times and get no response and the controller issues instructions to another airplane. If he would just say, "xxxx standby" we wouldn't keep calling. I don't know if he/she has heard or if I have a radio problem or what.
It results in a lot of blocked transmissions and needless waste of valuable airtime, especially on the east coast.
Do you then return to immediately tend to BugSmasher, or issue the control instruction to BigIron?
Obviously, your answer should vary based on the circumstance. If BugSmasher is yelling "MayDay", sure, go to him. But a vital control instruction trumps saying hi to a guy just checking in.
11-29-2010, 12:55 PM
#73
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,750
Well, imagine that you were the controller on the "landline" talking to a controller at another facility about BigIron 123. Bug Smasher 234 keeps calling (and going over the speaker) while you're discussing what speed / heading / altitude the other ATC facility will take BigIron at.
Do you then return to immediately tend to BugSmasher, or issue the control instruction to BigIron?
Obviously, your answer should vary based on the circumstance. If BugSmasher is yelling "MayDay", sure, go to him. But a vital control instruction trumps saying hi to a guy just checking in.
Do you then return to immediately tend to BugSmasher, or issue the control instruction to BigIron?
Obviously, your answer should vary based on the circumstance. If BugSmasher is yelling "MayDay", sure, go to him. But a vital control instruction trumps saying hi to a guy just checking in.
Bigiron 123 does not have a higher ATC priority than Bugsmasher, except for spacing purposes. At least that's how I understand it. My point is that a simple "Bugsmasher 123, standby" would eliminate a lot of wasted air time and result in fewer blocked transmissions.
I base this my having worked overseas where they did that and there were a lot less blocked callsigns, etc.
Not a whine, really, just a way I think it could be improved. That's all.
11-29-2010, 02:16 PM
#74
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Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: single pilot cargo, turboprop
Posts: 484
My thought on this is that it's a lot easier for me to manage my fuel when I get assigned a hold with a firm EFC time. Especially when on min fuel. The zig zag vectors are indefinite in duration, and make it very difficult to formulate a bingo fuel plan as for when to divert.
Of all the times I've landed with "uncomfortable" fuel levels, it's been with surprise vectors, never a hold. When I hold, I compute my bingo, then head to the alternate when I hit it.
Of all the times I've landed with "uncomfortable" fuel levels, it's been with surprise vectors, never a hold. When I hold, I compute my bingo, then head to the alternate when I hit it.
+1 on this. A hold provides me with much more info than the zig zag tour. At least with a hold I have a "worst case" number to deal with. With the zig zag tour I have no info and usually the freq is too busy with other zig zags to be able to ask how long the delay will be in minutes. With the low fuel planning that has gained popularity in the past few years zig zags have a tendency to get uncomfortable quick.
11-29-2010, 02:40 PM
#75
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: CPT
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11-29-2010, 04:32 PM
#77
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Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 403
Nup, happens every day in ATL--for real.
No big deal really. I get paid by the hour, I out climb you just as easily at 280 as 330. Once they have enough separation, they give me normal speed. Then I out climb and out pace you.
Comparing specs on a plane to the "typical" of another ain't exactly apples to apples.
You can have your POS RJ and I'll keep the old trusty, better paying -88. The funniest thing is how quickly RJ pilots grab the bait.
No big deal really. I get paid by the hour, I out climb you just as easily at 280 as 330. Once they have enough separation, they give me normal speed. Then I out climb and out pace you.
Comparing specs on a plane to the "typical" of another ain't exactly apples to apples.
You can have your POS RJ and I'll keep the old trusty, better paying -88. The funniest thing is how quickly RJ pilots grab the bait.
11-29-2010, 05:30 PM
#78
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Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 433
Nup, happens every day in ATL--for real.
No big deal really. I get paid by the hour, I out climb you just as easily at 280 as 330. Once they have enough separation, they give me normal speed. Then I out climb and out pace you.
Comparing specs on a plane to the "typical" of another ain't exactly apples to apples.
You can have your POS RJ and I'll keep the old trusty, better paying -88. The funniest thing is how quickly RJ pilots grab the bait.
No big deal really. I get paid by the hour, I out climb you just as easily at 280 as 330. Once they have enough separation, they give me normal speed. Then I out climb and out pace you.
Comparing specs on a plane to the "typical" of another ain't exactly apples to apples.
You can have your POS RJ and I'll keep the old trusty, better paying -88. The funniest thing is how quickly RJ pilots grab the bait.
Maybe you could post a 'Kill' video like they do on all those street racing forums.
11-30-2010, 01:57 AM
#80
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Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: B757/B767
Posts: 180
Hey Ajax, thanks for coming on here and sharing the info! I visited y'all in Westbury a couple of years ago (J.K. from JFK area showed me around), and it was some of the most interesting 2 hours I've ever spent. It was definitely fascinating seeing the picture from your side. I pretty much spent the enitre time in the JFK corner of the room, and didn't make it over to EWR, LGA, ISP, or Liberty. I remember it was a super windy night and JFK was landing 31R with something like 100-110KT groundspeeds on final, departing 31L during the evening push. Couple of questions:
1. Do you have any idea how arrival rates/AAR are derived? I go on the FAA website from time to time on lousy wx days and I've noticed AARs (assuming single arrival runway) can vary from 25/hour to 40/hour. I understand a heavy jet mix can impact these numbers, but do you know how they come up with these numbers, otherwise?
2. Related Q: JFK (and I pressume EWR as well), issues clearances for an IFR approach (i.e. ILS31R, VOR13L, VOR/DME22L) about 70% of the time, the rest being visual approaches. Why, then do delays start to happen when the ceiling goes to, say, 800 feet? And why would AAR go down if, say, the ceiling drops to 300-400 and the visibility drops to 1SM? Wouldn't the spacing required on final be the same, regardless?
3. Some controllers seem to be reluctant to give clearances for a visual approach. I've had cases where we call field/traffic in sight, and we continue to be vectored for an IFR approach, sometimes with nobody ahead of us for the airport (no runway change involved). Any idea why that may be? Doesn't issuing a clearance for a visual take us off the controller's hands in terms of spacing and separation?
4. At LGA it's not uncommon to be 2.5-3 miles-in-trail on a visual approach to the traffic ahead on final, but at JFK it seems we're always 5-6 miles behind whoever we're following, be it a 767 or an RJ. Any idea why JFK wants nearly 2x the spacing on final as LGA?
5. Why do things like windshear reduce AARs? I've heard how wind can cause spacing issues, but it's still a little unclear, for me at least.....
6. Why the super wide downwind at EWR? It's been awhile since I've been there, but I'm guessing it's to keep arrivals beneath and wide from EWR/LGA departures westbound?
Sorry for the plethora of questions! I had a bunch of EWR/TEB questions, but you answered those nicely, I must say. You guys do a superb job, and y'all definitely don't have it easy!
1. Do you have any idea how arrival rates/AAR are derived? I go on the FAA website from time to time on lousy wx days and I've noticed AARs (assuming single arrival runway) can vary from 25/hour to 40/hour. I understand a heavy jet mix can impact these numbers, but do you know how they come up with these numbers, otherwise?
2. Related Q: JFK (and I pressume EWR as well), issues clearances for an IFR approach (i.e. ILS31R, VOR13L, VOR/DME22L) about 70% of the time, the rest being visual approaches. Why, then do delays start to happen when the ceiling goes to, say, 800 feet? And why would AAR go down if, say, the ceiling drops to 300-400 and the visibility drops to 1SM? Wouldn't the spacing required on final be the same, regardless?
3. Some controllers seem to be reluctant to give clearances for a visual approach. I've had cases where we call field/traffic in sight, and we continue to be vectored for an IFR approach, sometimes with nobody ahead of us for the airport (no runway change involved). Any idea why that may be? Doesn't issuing a clearance for a visual take us off the controller's hands in terms of spacing and separation?
4. At LGA it's not uncommon to be 2.5-3 miles-in-trail on a visual approach to the traffic ahead on final, but at JFK it seems we're always 5-6 miles behind whoever we're following, be it a 767 or an RJ. Any idea why JFK wants nearly 2x the spacing on final as LGA?
5. Why do things like windshear reduce AARs? I've heard how wind can cause spacing issues, but it's still a little unclear, for me at least.....
6. Why the super wide downwind at EWR? It's been awhile since I've been there, but I'm guessing it's to keep arrivals beneath and wide from EWR/LGA departures westbound?
Sorry for the plethora of questions! I had a bunch of EWR/TEB questions, but you answered those nicely, I must say. You guys do a superb job, and y'all definitely don't have it easy!
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