So many 50 seaters
08-12-2010, 07:57 AM
#31
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,750
It's about 1:20-1:35 depending on direction of flight and winds. ERJ or CRJ would be perfect. I do question it's place though when I am launching from PHL-MCI in the dead of winter and looking at 2:45 or even 3:00 on the FMS and every single seat is full. That, folks, is a long flight on a 50-seater. Too long.
08-12-2010, 08:14 AM
#32
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
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That is part of the problem, it cost as much to run a 50 seater as it does a 733. The finical whiz kids are finally starting to figure that out and the RJ is quickly losing it status as darling of the airlines (managers). So, I could run 1 73 or 2.5 RJs to achive the same pax count. No cost savings there and thus your cost savings argument doesn't hold water.
Since I commute internationally and begin the trip out of a mid-size city, I ride on RJs all the time. I also avoid RJs as much as possible. RJ seats tend to be narrower and much more uncomfortable than a small narrowbody jet seats. You can quote seat pitch all day but RJ seats suck and that is being nice. I'll take a rear seat in a DC-9-10 over a RJ any day.
Last edited by dojetdriver; 08-12-2010 at 08:29 AM.
08-12-2010, 09:46 AM
#33
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Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: A-320 FO
Posts: 693
50 seat market:
One of the best 50 seaters was the Nihon YS-11, and it wasn't that long ago when Piedmont first purchased them for $1M apiece, and was flying them off of shale runways. It was fast, and quiet inside (not out) and had ample room, we had a bunch at PBA in the 80's. "It cost as much to run a 50 seater as it does a 733"? Guess again, the DOC's on the 733 are double that of the RJ, right down to the landing fee schedule at MAssport. Obviously you don't flight plan your RJ for 5000#/hr burn, plus there are two more salaries in back of the 733, and two higher salaries up front. Not certain about Boeing leases, however Jet Blue 320's will cost you $375,000/mo.
08-12-2010, 12:07 PM
#34
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Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
I'm not convinced the CRJ200 or the larger ones are not immune to the ERJ enroute performance issues.
08-12-2010, 12:30 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,107
50 seat economics depend on several things...
- Lower labor cost.
- Value of frequency to the consumers.
- Reasonable fuel costs
In the current environment, labor cost is low, fuel is not too bad, and pax value good frequency.
These are things which could screw up that equation in the future...
- Significant increase in regional labor costs...fat chance, although inceasing longevity due to no growth/movement will make a dent.
- Increasing fuel costs...this could make it more economical to run larger planes with less frequency. Pax will pay for frequency, but only up to a point.
- Congestion...slot limitations would force a shift to larger airframes. This WILL happen eventually, just a question of how long.
For right now, 50 seaters still work, and as long as people have leases to cover they will keep operating them. If the lease is payed off and you can make a little profit, might as well keep operating them too.
- Lower labor cost.
- Value of frequency to the consumers.
- Reasonable fuel costs
In the current environment, labor cost is low, fuel is not too bad, and pax value good frequency.
These are things which could screw up that equation in the future...
- Significant increase in regional labor costs...fat chance, although inceasing longevity due to no growth/movement will make a dent.
- Increasing fuel costs...this could make it more economical to run larger planes with less frequency. Pax will pay for frequency, but only up to a point.
- Congestion...slot limitations would force a shift to larger airframes. This WILL happen eventually, just a question of how long.
For right now, 50 seaters still work, and as long as people have leases to cover they will keep operating them. If the lease is payed off and you can make a little profit, might as well keep operating them too.
08-12-2010, 01:51 PM
#36
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
However, when I was in class in May I asked B.C this question; How come the WHOLE time we were out on the west coast I never heard a SKW plane decline direct routing, as well as why they could take the RNAV SIDs out of SLC and we couldn't.
His answer, "they're behind the scenes flight ops engineering is different than ours".
08-12-2010, 03:57 PM
#37
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Honesty, I'm not either.
However, when I was in class in May I asked B.C this question; How come the WHOLE time we were out on the west coast I never heard a SKW plane decline direct routing, as well as why they could take the RNAV SIDs out of SLC and we couldn't.
His answer, "they're behind the scenes flight ops engineering is different than ours".
However, when I was in class in May I asked B.C this question; How come the WHOLE time we were out on the west coast I never heard a SKW plane decline direct routing, as well as why they could take the RNAV SIDs out of SLC and we couldn't.
His answer, "they're behind the scenes flight ops engineering is different than ours".
08-12-2010, 06:04 PM
#38
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
Point I was making was that even when two different companies are operating the SAME aircraft type, what the plane can actually do in real life and what each of their performance data says they can do are not always the same.
At my former employer, AWAC's CRJ's could go into places that ours couldn't Why, simply because they were using a different (and probably more expensive) vendor.
Thread drift complete.
08-13-2010, 06:24 PM
#39
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: ERJ145 Captain
Posts: 473
SCOPE CLAUSE
As long as places like CAL continue to hold the line, there will be a market. I know a lot of folks here are salivating at the opportunity to take mainline jobs away, but let's focus on the real factor, Scope!
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