SkyWest Union Discussion (In House or ALPA?)
08-10-2010, 03:52 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: e190
Posts: 929
I can't believe that I'm actually agreeing with Slaphappy on something, but I am. I'm a junior RJ FO out west, and just spent the last four days bouncing around LAX and SFO. The vast majority of pilots I spoke with about the merger had the same sentiment: "Thank God we're not involved in that".
Pilots out west are afraid of senior XJet and ASA pilots bumping them out of their domiciles or knocking them down the list in domicile. While there will be some from SKW that will want to set up shop in IAH or ATL (both former domiciles), the majority just want to keep the status quo.
Secondly, the FOs are mostly against any sort of merging of lists for seniority progression. Right now there's a strong feeling that hiring and upgrades will begin no later than next spring. The FOs that have stagnated for the last two and a half years have been waiting for a chance to have better schedules and possibly upgrade. They don't want to see their progression cut by 2/3 because the XJet and ASA pilots are upgrading into SKW aircraft.
Simply put, most at SkyWest want nothing to do with a merged seniority list. As for the union talk, right now I think a vote would be a crapshoot. If a single seniority list is forced on the pilot group, I think they turn strongly anti-union just to spite the Xjet pilots.
Pilots out west are afraid of senior XJet and ASA pilots bumping them out of their domiciles or knocking them down the list in domicile. While there will be some from SKW that will want to set up shop in IAH or ATL (both former domiciles), the majority just want to keep the status quo.
Secondly, the FOs are mostly against any sort of merging of lists for seniority progression. Right now there's a strong feeling that hiring and upgrades will begin no later than next spring. The FOs that have stagnated for the last two and a half years have been waiting for a chance to have better schedules and possibly upgrade. They don't want to see their progression cut by 2/3 because the XJet and ASA pilots are upgrading into SKW aircraft.
Simply put, most at SkyWest want nothing to do with a merged seniority list. As for the union talk, right now I think a vote would be a crapshoot. If a single seniority list is forced on the pilot group, I think they turn strongly anti-union just to spite the Xjet pilots.
I know you probably have aspirations to move onto a major but what happens if you cant move on and skywest becomes your career? This merger provides job security for Skywest, ASA, and XJT. If the merger goes through nothing will change until the fences are gone but in the long term you have more options and a more stable career if you need it.
I know slaphappy doesnt believe that there will ever be a whipshaw but the history of airline management and the games his management has already played with XJT during the previous negotiations have left a bad taste in our mouths. In the last negotiations your management was PAID by CAL to basically strong arm our company into much lower rates in our CPA. They wanted to whipshaw us.
They offered to purchase us but wanted to:
- furlough 700 pilots
- transfer XJT's delta flying in LAX to Skywest
- "re-bid" our Continental flying between ASA, XJT, and OO after 1 yr and every year there after
- transfer up to 10 aircraft annually to the lowest cost operator
- they wanted our union to completely void our scope clause in our contract
THAT IS A WHIPSHAW! That is what your management is capable of and that is why XJT and ASA pilots want one list. XJT wants their contract upheld and while your opinions are genuine i think a lot of your fears would be put to rest if you understood how the SLI and voting would go.
08-10-2010, 04:00 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: e190
Posts: 929
How do you "poach" a seniority list if everyone keeps their relative seniority regardless of hire date? If a single list was agreed to based on maintaining relative seniority, how does upgrade become more difficult at all? Please explain this to me because I want to understand.
Are SkyWest pilots afraid that because you operate the E120, that those crews will be cast down the integrated list because they are "lowly" turboprop pilots and should expect to have a lesser position in the merged list due to that factor? I think you would be wrong. We are all the same class of pilot working for the same type of airlines with essentially the same career expectations.
What is the difference between being pilot number 1400 of 2800 at SKW or
number 3500 of 7000 at SKW+ASA+XJT? Seriously, I don't understand. Please educate me on how having the same percentage of pilots above and below you on a larger list will harm your career progression? If anything, you will end up with a slightly MORE JUNIOR (longevity) top end due to XJT and possibly greater movement out from the list above you when majors start doing a lot of hiring and those guys have a tendency to leave more eagerly than the senior guys above you today at SKW now who aren't going anywhere. Did you ever consider that angle?
What I am saying is it will not be a date of hire integration, if that's the big fear.
Are SkyWest pilots afraid that because you operate the E120, that those crews will be cast down the integrated list because they are "lowly" turboprop pilots and should expect to have a lesser position in the merged list due to that factor? I think you would be wrong. We are all the same class of pilot working for the same type of airlines with essentially the same career expectations.
What is the difference between being pilot number 1400 of 2800 at SKW or
number 3500 of 7000 at SKW+ASA+XJT? Seriously, I don't understand. Please educate me on how having the same percentage of pilots above and below you on a larger list will harm your career progression? If anything, you will end up with a slightly MORE JUNIOR (longevity) top end due to XJT and possibly greater movement out from the list above you when majors start doing a lot of hiring and those guys have a tendency to leave more eagerly than the senior guys above you today at SKW now who aren't going anywhere. Did you ever consider that angle?
What I am saying is it will not be a date of hire integration, if that's the big fear.
I have only looked at ASA and XJT but my hire date at XJT would be merged with a hire date 5 months later at ASA.
08-10-2010, 04:07 AM
#73
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Self employed
Posts: 3,048
08-10-2010, 04:37 AM
#74
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I just don't understand the mentality of SKW pilots as far as wanting to remain non-union. Is it really that great? Are you afraid of losing the "bubba deals" you cut with schedulers because there isn't a pesky CBA to interfere with you getting what you need when you need it, while every other pilot cuts their own deal? ALPA is not perfect. It's run by a bunch of political types who probably should have been Congressmen. But 2% is small change for what you get. It's worth it, even if you don't ever need to use the resources that are available to you as an ALPA pilot. I buy insurance for my car, house, medical needs, my teeth. I guess I just see ALPA as a 2% insurance payment.
And as far as a Unified Seniority List. What are you afraid of? With the Alleghney-Mohawk merger protocol of the RLA and the McCaskill-Bond Act, you will be fine. No one at ASA or XJT or SKW should be or will be able to trample either of the others. Most XJT support a percentage integration, which seems most fair to me. If you are 50% seniority at any of the 3 companies, then you get a 50% number on the new Unified Seniority List. If you are 20%, you end up 20%. There will be base/aircraft fences for a number of years to prevent expensive re-training cycles and base and seat displacements, no one will be kicked somewhere they don't want to be for a long time. But if vacancies open up, well, we're one big happy family now, so everything new goes up to bid for everyone.
As far as a percentage integration goes, a '96 ASA hire, a '00 XJT hire, and a '02 SKW hire could all be right next to each other on the new list (just making this up, I don't know the percentages in terms of Hire Date at any company except XJT). So I may end up junior to a SKW pilot who has 2-3 years less service than me. I may end up more senior than an ASA pilot who has 2 years more service than me. It's a new airline. We have to let go of stupid high-schoolish ideas like "I have been here longer, so I should be more senior" That is very counter productive thinking, no matter what company you are coming from into the new mix.
I hope we can all be One Airline on One List. And if not, I hope XJT gets a judge to order an injunction against the sale as being illegal as proposed, XJT goes bankrupt (I guess) Uni-Cal gets stuck with our leases, JA gets to eat a steaming pile of his own hubris for not simply agreeing to treat his employees fairly and equitably, and XJT becomes a worthless horribly performing operation that no one can give away.
If I were an XJT stockholder, I would be writing JA to just agree to meet the terms of the XJT pilot contract, and avoid a lengthy court fight, so I can get paid my $6.75.
And as far as a Unified Seniority List. What are you afraid of? With the Alleghney-Mohawk merger protocol of the RLA and the McCaskill-Bond Act, you will be fine. No one at ASA or XJT or SKW should be or will be able to trample either of the others. Most XJT support a percentage integration, which seems most fair to me. If you are 50% seniority at any of the 3 companies, then you get a 50% number on the new Unified Seniority List. If you are 20%, you end up 20%. There will be base/aircraft fences for a number of years to prevent expensive re-training cycles and base and seat displacements, no one will be kicked somewhere they don't want to be for a long time. But if vacancies open up, well, we're one big happy family now, so everything new goes up to bid for everyone.
As far as a percentage integration goes, a '96 ASA hire, a '00 XJT hire, and a '02 SKW hire could all be right next to each other on the new list (just making this up, I don't know the percentages in terms of Hire Date at any company except XJT). So I may end up junior to a SKW pilot who has 2-3 years less service than me. I may end up more senior than an ASA pilot who has 2 years more service than me. It's a new airline. We have to let go of stupid high-schoolish ideas like "I have been here longer, so I should be more senior" That is very counter productive thinking, no matter what company you are coming from into the new mix.
I hope we can all be One Airline on One List. And if not, I hope XJT gets a judge to order an injunction against the sale as being illegal as proposed, XJT goes bankrupt (I guess) Uni-Cal gets stuck with our leases, JA gets to eat a steaming pile of his own hubris for not simply agreeing to treat his employees fairly and equitably, and XJT becomes a worthless horribly performing operation that no one can give away.
If I were an XJT stockholder, I would be writing JA to just agree to meet the terms of the XJT pilot contract, and avoid a lengthy court fight, so I can get paid my $6.75.
How do you "poach" a seniority list if everyone keeps their relative seniority regardless of hire date? If a single list was agreed to based on maintaining relative seniority, how does upgrade become more difficult at all? Please explain this to me because I want to understand.
Are SkyWest pilots afraid that because you operate the E120, that those crews will be cast down the integrated list because they are "lowly" turboprop pilots and should expect to have a lesser position in the merged list due to that factor? I think you would be wrong. We are all the same class of pilot working for the same type of airlines with essentially the same career expectations.
What is the difference between being pilot number 1400 of 2800 at SKW or
number 3500 of 7000 at SKW+ASA+XJT? Seriously, I don't understand. Please educate me on how having the same percentage of pilots above and below you on a larger list will harm your career progression? If anything, you will end up with a slightly MORE JUNIOR (longevity) top end due to XJT and possibly greater movement out from the list above you when majors start doing a lot of hiring and those guys have a tendency to leave more eagerly than the senior guys above you today at SKW now who aren't going anywhere. Did you ever consider that angle?
What I am saying is it will not be a date of hire integration, if that's the big fear.
Are SkyWest pilots afraid that because you operate the E120, that those crews will be cast down the integrated list because they are "lowly" turboprop pilots and should expect to have a lesser position in the merged list due to that factor? I think you would be wrong. We are all the same class of pilot working for the same type of airlines with essentially the same career expectations.
What is the difference between being pilot number 1400 of 2800 at SKW or
number 3500 of 7000 at SKW+ASA+XJT? Seriously, I don't understand. Please educate me on how having the same percentage of pilots above and below you on a larger list will harm your career progression? If anything, you will end up with a slightly MORE JUNIOR (longevity) top end due to XJT and possibly greater movement out from the list above you when majors start doing a lot of hiring and those guys have a tendency to leave more eagerly than the senior guys above you today at SKW now who aren't going anywhere. Did you ever consider that angle?
What I am saying is it will not be a date of hire integration, if that's the big fear.
---
BTW, as to the XJT going chapter 11 or 7 that SKW folks keep parading around here as "we saved you!". I don't think you did. You got a contract now with CAL, soon to be the largest airline in the world United, to fly 206 jets by purchasing XJT. Except for Trans States, guess who will really control UAL's regional network? SKW. And guess what happens if U-CAL tries to cut XJT's fleet? So, this wasn't a "we'll come save you!" This is just an attempt to create a monopoly. Its wise for SKW but I would expect CAL ALPA and CAL to mix it up a bit at some point.
XJT has had its problems, namely CAL's pov about people and CAL's ALPA/IACP's now seemingly strong scope, who you're about to get into bed with in a big way. But keep in mind that like any merger the process starts behind the scenes a while before it becomes public and there is usually the obligatory "cut every budget by 30%" and when that happens you know a merger is coming.
08-10-2010, 05:13 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 326
While we voted on and got PBS, there was always the threat that if we did not reduce our costs compared to other pilot groups, we would not grow. Skywest Airlines has one of the lowest cost pilot groups out there and you can bet that Skywest, Inc is not going to miss out on an opportunity to grow!
What about health care? While I'm a fan of HSAs, they aren't for everyone and Skywest Inc is really pushing hard for a change in the next contract pointing to the fact that you did not have a choice.
That's three good examples without really having to think about it!!
If there had been one then ASA would not have gotten UAL flying, 10 900s, 4 700s from horizon and 13 700s from comair. Skywest airlines has only gotten 18 700s as replacements for bros and 15 200s for the failed Midwest contract.
I think you have a very skewed view of whipsaw. It's a lot easier to say there's no such thing when you are the tool being used.
08-10-2010, 12:43 PM
#76
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Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Dreamniner
Posts: 352
How do you "poach" a seniority list if everyone keeps their relative seniority regardless of hire date? If a single list was agreed to based on maintaining relative seniority, how does upgrade become more difficult at all? Please explain this to me because I want to understand.
What I am saying is it will not be a date of hire integration, if that's the big fear.
What I am saying is it will not be a date of hire integration, if that's the big fear.
As for your question about upgrades with a relative seniority list, just consider a scenario where the airline gets 20 aircraft, resulting in 100 new captain spots. On a list where you are 400 away from the junior captain, you will get about 25% closer to the left seat. On a combined list where you are now 1,200 away, you move a whopping 8.3 %.
Management is very good at dangling carrots and hinting at future growth. Many pilots have bought into. If you think growth is just around the corner (as many at SKW do) and are junior, you don't want a combined list.
08-10-2010, 01:17 PM
#77
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
DOH isn't the fear. Loss of domiciles is the big fear. Perhaps this could be mitigated with fences.
As for your question about upgrades with a relative seniority list, just consider a scenario where the airline gets 20 aircraft, resulting in 100 new captain spots. On a list where you are 400 away from the junior captain, you will get about 25% closer to the left seat. On a combined list where you are now 1,200 away, you move a whopping 8.3 %.
Management is very good at dangling carrots and hinting at future growth. Many pilots have bought into. If you think growth is just around the corner (as many at SKW do) and are junior, you don't want a combined list.
As for your question about upgrades with a relative seniority list, just consider a scenario where the airline gets 20 aircraft, resulting in 100 new captain spots. On a list where you are 400 away from the junior captain, you will get about 25% closer to the left seat. On a combined list where you are now 1,200 away, you move a whopping 8.3 %.
Management is very good at dangling carrots and hinting at future growth. Many pilots have bought into. If you think growth is just around the corner (as many at SKW do) and are junior, you don't want a combined list.
08-10-2010, 02:47 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 114
As for your question about upgrades with a relative seniority list, just consider a scenario where the airline gets 20 aircraft, resulting in 100 new captain spots. On a list where you are 400 away from the junior captain, you will get about 25% closer to the left seat. On a combined list where you are now 1,200 away, you move a whopping 8.3 %.
I feel that all pilots working for the same holding company should be treated 100% equally. There would be benefits to current SkyWest pilots as well as ASA/XJT pilots.
08-10-2010, 03:36 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Dreamniner
Posts: 352
This can easily be mitigated. If pilots are only allowed to bid into bases with vacancies no one will lose their domicile. You would have to leave to lose it.
In a "two list" scenario, what if ASA/XJT was the airline to get 20 aircraft? The person in your example would move 0%, while those at ASA/XJT would move 12.5% closer. That isn't equitable and neither is the situation you describe above.
I feel that all pilots working for the same holding company should be treated 100% equally. There would be benefits to current SkyWest pilots as well as ASA/XJT pilots.
In a "two list" scenario, what if ASA/XJT was the airline to get 20 aircraft? The person in your example would move 0%, while those at ASA/XJT would move 12.5% closer. That isn't equitable and neither is the situation you describe above.
I feel that all pilots working for the same holding company should be treated 100% equally. There would be benefits to current SkyWest pilots as well as ASA/XJT pilots.
Are they right? I shrug. I have no special insight into the minds of SkyWest management. Just giving you the mentality of many that I've encountered.
08-10-2010, 04:19 PM
#80
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
You are correct that in the two list scenario, the airframes may go to ASA/XJT. However, many at SkyWest seem to think that they are management's "favorite" because it's non-union, or SkyWest is Jerry's baby, or various other theories. They think that ASA got their recent UAL flying because they had furloughees, but now that they're back SKW will see the growth.
Are they right? I shrug. I have no special insight into the minds of SkyWest management. Just giving you the mentality of many that I've encountered.
Are they right? I shrug. I have no special insight into the minds of SkyWest management. Just giving you the mentality of many that I've encountered.
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