F9/rah Sli?
08-04-2010, 07:16 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 523
Just a few thoughts here. I really hope some of these statements made on this board are by drunk keyboard commandos who are bored of looking at internet porn. If people really think like this on both sides of the table, we're in for a bumpy road.
Bottom line, we are all employees of a holding company run by crude tyrants with no respect for their frontline employees. They will play us against each other simply to erode pay. This union v union fighting only helps their cause. BB flat out stated he'd like to keep our lists separate. Why do you think that is? It sure as heck isn't to protect Frontier FOs seniority or chance at an airbus upgrade. The more we fight amongst ourselves, the less leverage we have against the company. A prolonged seniority battle has been in the RAH executive playbook from the start.
The SLI will be a painful process, but one we have to embrace quickly so that we can move on. I'm a RW FO, and pretty sure that I'll be royally screwed by the SLI. Will I be POd after it goes through? I'm expecting it. What I'm focused on however, is the long term issues at this new abomination of an airline. The sooner the SLI is complete, we can begin to form a unified front against management. Get angry at BB & WH, not at each other.
Bottom line, we are all employees of a holding company run by crude tyrants with no respect for their frontline employees. They will play us against each other simply to erode pay. This union v union fighting only helps their cause. BB flat out stated he'd like to keep our lists separate. Why do you think that is? It sure as heck isn't to protect Frontier FOs seniority or chance at an airbus upgrade. The more we fight amongst ourselves, the less leverage we have against the company. A prolonged seniority battle has been in the RAH executive playbook from the start.
The SLI will be a painful process, but one we have to embrace quickly so that we can move on. I'm a RW FO, and pretty sure that I'll be royally screwed by the SLI. Will I be POd after it goes through? I'm expecting it. What I'm focused on however, is the long term issues at this new abomination of an airline. The sooner the SLI is complete, we can begin to form a unified front against management. Get angry at BB & WH, not at each other.
08-04-2010, 07:18 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by ToiletDuck 
1) Republic announced Frontier before Midwest who cares about announced, when was it final. Midwest July 30th, Frontier Oct 1.
2) Amalgamation of contracts has no set rules. The company can simply say no all day long. Not really. Look at dal/nw and ual/cal.
3) There was also the inclusion of Lynx and Mokulele at the time who also were to be represented
4) At that point in time both Frontier and Midwest didn't want to integrate let alone amalgamate contracts. Pure speculation by you.
5) Contract neg. was stopped for good reason. There was a lot going on and a lot of questions that needed answering. Each union found out the same way we did, though the news, and needed to make sure they had all of their ducks in a row before proceeding forward.
6) Without everyone on a single seniority list the amalgamation and negotiation of a new contract would just be a large flop See how dal/nw and ual/cal are doing it? There's no airline with multiple pilot groups that have benefited from not being on the same seniority list. See Mesa/Freedom, GoJets/TSA. Past history dictates moving forward without being combined is extremely risky. I'm not debating this. Just the way IBT has done this is backwords because a reasonable person would assume after a year of work on this SLI it would actually accomplish something. It doesn't. It's a list of numbers with no legal authority to do anything without a transition agreement that directs it's implementation. The only benefit of doing it this way is the IBT can hang on a little longer. If they would have done it via the method that dal/nw and cal/ual have used, the IBT would be gone by now.
There's no benefit for Frontier to maintain separate. Everyone agreed to integration, to a timeline, to get it completed in a timely manner. You don't place your bets then try and pull it back off the table once the cards are being dealt. Everyone agree to integrate the seniority list. Nothing more.
Interesting replies in red to ToiletDuck...sounds verbatim like the writings of a certain ALPA lawyer who uses a couple of folks to to his posting.
He forgets to mention that the merger of dal/nwa involved some screwing of the NWA pilots and a deal cut by the DAL MEC and ALPA that Prater denied he had signed...until a copy was handed to him.
Also forgets that there have been other mergers that have been royally screwed up...like NWA/Republic.
And that this merger involves three different unions. And they were smart enough to realize that it's better to get everything lined up before movng forward.
One things for sure. ALPA will love hitting you for more dues money. Don't expect much in return...ask the Midwest guys how much help Prater offered when he was up there for the rally when he promised to "change his zip code" ...he told them in a meeting they'd get nothing...because then ALL the little carriers would want the same help.
Regardless, expect him to be camped on your doorstep and your new "bestest" friend for the next three months. He's running for election again and is gonna start raiding every place he can, looking for votes.
And your money.
1) Republic announced Frontier before Midwest who cares about announced, when was it final. Midwest July 30th, Frontier Oct 1.
2) Amalgamation of contracts has no set rules. The company can simply say no all day long. Not really. Look at dal/nw and ual/cal.
3) There was also the inclusion of Lynx and Mokulele at the time who also were to be represented
4) At that point in time both Frontier and Midwest didn't want to integrate let alone amalgamate contracts. Pure speculation by you.
5) Contract neg. was stopped for good reason. There was a lot going on and a lot of questions that needed answering. Each union found out the same way we did, though the news, and needed to make sure they had all of their ducks in a row before proceeding forward.
6) Without everyone on a single seniority list the amalgamation and negotiation of a new contract would just be a large flop See how dal/nw and ual/cal are doing it? There's no airline with multiple pilot groups that have benefited from not being on the same seniority list. See Mesa/Freedom, GoJets/TSA. Past history dictates moving forward without being combined is extremely risky. I'm not debating this. Just the way IBT has done this is backwords because a reasonable person would assume after a year of work on this SLI it would actually accomplish something. It doesn't. It's a list of numbers with no legal authority to do anything without a transition agreement that directs it's implementation. The only benefit of doing it this way is the IBT can hang on a little longer. If they would have done it via the method that dal/nw and cal/ual have used, the IBT would be gone by now.
There's no benefit for Frontier to maintain separate. Everyone agreed to integration, to a timeline, to get it completed in a timely manner. You don't place your bets then try and pull it back off the table once the cards are being dealt. Everyone agree to integrate the seniority list. Nothing more.
Interesting replies in red to ToiletDuck...sounds verbatim like the writings of a certain ALPA lawyer who uses a couple of folks to to his posting.
He forgets to mention that the merger of dal/nwa involved some screwing of the NWA pilots and a deal cut by the DAL MEC and ALPA that Prater denied he had signed...until a copy was handed to him.
Also forgets that there have been other mergers that have been royally screwed up...like NWA/Republic.
And that this merger involves three different unions. And they were smart enough to realize that it's better to get everything lined up before movng forward.
One things for sure. ALPA will love hitting you for more dues money. Don't expect much in return...ask the Midwest guys how much help Prater offered when he was up there for the rally when he promised to "change his zip code" ...he told them in a meeting they'd get nothing...because then ALL the little carriers would want the same help.
Regardless, expect him to be camped on your doorstep and your new "bestest" friend for the next three months. He's running for election again and is gonna start raiding every place he can, looking for votes.
And your money.
08-04-2010, 07:29 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 124
Wow, there is definitely not enough oxygen around this planet to support TWO idiots as stupid as "sticky" and "ichigo". Thankfully, the world of aviation is small and the world of aviation message board is smaller. You should realize that when you register you are also broadcasting your IP address. We know you are the same dumbarse so spare us the bandwidth.
As for your nonsensical claim about "testing our current rigs against your lines", you don't have "lines". You have Pref Bid.
Additionally, I do know how our rigs apply to your "pairings" because I talk to actual RAH pilots all the time and I listen to them tell me about the CDO's that don't pay and the weekend pairings that have 2-5 hour sits.
Please keep talking, you are only helping my cause.
As for your nonsensical claim about "testing our current rigs against your lines", you don't have "lines". You have Pref Bid.
Additionally, I do know how our rigs apply to your "pairings" because I talk to actual RAH pilots all the time and I listen to them tell me about the CDO's that don't pay and the weekend pairings that have 2-5 hour sits.
Please keep talking, you are only helping my cause.
08-04-2010, 09:41 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 339
Wow, there is definitely not enough oxygen around this planet to support TWO idiots as stupid as "sticky" and "ichigo". Thankfully, the world of aviation is small and the world of aviation message board is smaller. You should realize that when you register you are also broadcasting your IP address. We know you are the same dumbarse so spare us the bandwidth.
As for your nonsensical claim about "testing our current rigs against your lines", you don't have "lines". You have Pref Bid.
Additionally, I do know how our rigs apply to your "pairings" because I talk to actual RAH pilots all the time and I listen to them tell me about the CDO's that don't pay and the weekend pairings that have 2-5 hour sits.
Please keep talking, you are only helping my cause.
As for your nonsensical claim about "testing our current rigs against your lines", you don't have "lines". You have Pref Bid.
Additionally, I do know how our rigs apply to your "pairings" because I talk to actual RAH pilots all the time and I listen to them tell me about the CDO's that don't pay and the weekend pairings that have 2-5 hour sits.
Please keep talking, you are only helping my cause.
Please elaborate on how I am an idiot too. Or is it the word you resort to when you don't like what someone else says? You know, like a child does.
I miss spoke and said "lines" instead of "parings". The last time I ran your work rules against our PAIRINGS, it applied to and prevented very few of our current PAIRINGS.
Do you wish to comment of any of the wonderfully valid points I made? Or do you wish to simply focus and point out typos?
I hope you keep talking as well, my research into pompous asses is almost complete.
Last edited by sticky; 08-04-2010 at 12:07 PM.
08-05-2010, 12:06 AM
#76
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Narrow/Left Wide/Right
Posts: 3,655
Like a NW/DL B747-400 CA really even knows (or especially cares) that RAH/F9/MEH/Mokulele/Lynx are in SLI talks. You have to remember before you can forget!
08-05-2010, 12:33 AM
#77
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Get to a union meeting. Ask the questions. Why does ual/cal already have a transition agreement and you do not?
Whose contract does a Midwest pilot follow? How about a lynx pilot?
How about a F9 pilot flying a 190?
What are the safety measures that have been implemented to make sure your leadership isn't stealing from you?
Why is your 190 grievance taking far longer than usual?
08-05-2010, 03:50 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 339
Wow! F9er and Zooropa, you two are just a gold mine of developed, strategic, and focused thought! No wonder this was so easy.
You two continue to ignore and my valid points cause you can't dream up a single rational thought. You are incapable because RIGHT always trumps WRONG. It has been entertaining however, seeing you choose to focus on whether or not I have a double personality on this silly board and which aircraft I operate!
Hey TolietDuck..I regret to inform you that your logical sense is of no use here.
My job here is complete.
You two continue to ignore and my valid points cause you can't dream up a single rational thought. You are incapable because RIGHT always trumps WRONG. It has been entertaining however, seeing you choose to focus on whether or not I have a double personality on this silly board and which aircraft I operate!
Hey TolietDuck..I regret to inform you that your logical sense is of no use here.
My job here is complete.
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