Eagle for sale, again
07-03-2010, 06:01 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,951
Agreed, but few are facing the flipside to this philosophy.
Airlines like Skywest want to build a carrier on cheap labor, so maximum profit goes to those other than labor (espescially pilots). This sounds great until one realizes that if successful, it will only proliferate the larger RJ's into more of the domestic market, forcing mainlines to contract, thus producing less "career" positions and more "jobs". This philosophy is why I say in 10 years the best airline "job" for most pilots (9 out of 10) will be the 75K/year (2020 dollars) PBS based existance that must be begged for every 4-5 years (which insures pilot compensation stays in the gutter).
I find it confusing that so many pilots here trumpet the "Mesa" style upgrade mills (AKA "junior workforce") because they think that is what's going to get them to a major, but refuse to accept that this mentality will actually produce the opposite. Most regional pilots are young and are only concerned with immeadiate gratification (1000 RJ PIC) and then think their troubles are over. None want to build a regional into career status with eventual compensation like Eagle. Eagle doesn't pay really anymore then other regionals, but was a decent place to stay and that's why most did. Yes, Eagle is a dying icon........a once proud "career" company, but market forces and pilots attitiudes like you point out will insure there will be no "career" regionals in the future.............only a conglomeration of Mesa type carriers each undercuting each other over and over.
Mainline pilot jobs will wither on the vine and this will be bad for mainline pilots advancement and thus newhire slot generation, but nothing like the horror of future career regional pilots not having a career, but an unpleasant "commuter" job in perpituity. 10-15% might snag a few of the major airline positions that do become available, but these airlines will shrink and themselves become more effecient (even PBS), so again 8/9 out of 10 current regional pilots will be screwed, especially considering the military and corporate pilots looking for a home. If regionals were more career oriented in compensation and treatment, there would be fewer of them eating off mainline pilots plates and also making it better for regonal pilots, which is better then the almost certain future of 95 seat airliners being flown by peanut-eaters and kept in scheduling cages.
But hey................there WILL likely be a shiny 95 seat jet in most of their futures, even if they get paid and treated like crap. I guess it's better then 35K at Lowes. Many here at Eagle know what will eventually come as we too will be the eventual victims of market forces, whipsawing, emasculated pilot unions and self-centered pilot philosophy. It's inevitable. Dying icons like Eagle and Comair represent what could have been (and should have been) made of regional carriers.........a CAREER option, not an upgrade mill. An upgrade mill wouldn't be bad, IF there was a place for most to go, but this very philosophy will insure a "career" for most it will remain a carrot forever out of reach. As far as the dinosaurs of Eagle are concerned, until that time arrives for us, many of us poor (and scorned) senior types will enjoy the dying days of working for a career regional, getting paid a decent wage and 401(k) ($1/$1 match).........until the all the kids out there help facilitate the industry they so richly deserve, while the unions that suppsedly represent them remain helpless to stop it.
Airlines like Skywest want to build a carrier on cheap labor, so maximum profit goes to those other than labor (espescially pilots). This sounds great until one realizes that if successful, it will only proliferate the larger RJ's into more of the domestic market, forcing mainlines to contract, thus producing less "career" positions and more "jobs". This philosophy is why I say in 10 years the best airline "job" for most pilots (9 out of 10) will be the 75K/year (2020 dollars) PBS based existance that must be begged for every 4-5 years (which insures pilot compensation stays in the gutter).
I find it confusing that so many pilots here trumpet the "Mesa" style upgrade mills (AKA "junior workforce") because they think that is what's going to get them to a major, but refuse to accept that this mentality will actually produce the opposite. Most regional pilots are young and are only concerned with immeadiate gratification (1000 RJ PIC) and then think their troubles are over. None want to build a regional into career status with eventual compensation like Eagle. Eagle doesn't pay really anymore then other regionals, but was a decent place to stay and that's why most did. Yes, Eagle is a dying icon........a once proud "career" company, but market forces and pilots attitiudes like you point out will insure there will be no "career" regionals in the future.............only a conglomeration of Mesa type carriers each undercuting each other over and over.
Mainline pilot jobs will wither on the vine and this will be bad for mainline pilots advancement and thus newhire slot generation, but nothing like the horror of future career regional pilots not having a career, but an unpleasant "commuter" job in perpituity. 10-15% might snag a few of the major airline positions that do become available, but these airlines will shrink and themselves become more effecient (even PBS), so again 8/9 out of 10 current regional pilots will be screwed, especially considering the military and corporate pilots looking for a home. If regionals were more career oriented in compensation and treatment, there would be fewer of them eating off mainline pilots plates and also making it better for regonal pilots, which is better then the almost certain future of 95 seat airliners being flown by peanut-eaters and kept in scheduling cages.
But hey................there WILL likely be a shiny 95 seat jet in most of their futures, even if they get paid and treated like crap. I guess it's better then 35K at Lowes. Many here at Eagle know what will eventually come as we too will be the eventual victims of market forces, whipsawing, emasculated pilot unions and self-centered pilot philosophy. It's inevitable. Dying icons like Eagle and Comair represent what could have been (and should have been) made of regional carriers.........a CAREER option, not an upgrade mill. An upgrade mill wouldn't be bad, IF there was a place for most to go, but this very philosophy will insure a "career" for most it will remain a carrot forever out of reach. As far as the dinosaurs of Eagle are concerned, until that time arrives for us, many of us poor (and scorned) senior types will enjoy the dying days of working for a career regional, getting paid a decent wage and 401(k) ($1/$1 match).........until the all the kids out there help facilitate the industry they so richly deserve, while the unions that suppsedly represent them remain helpless to stop it.
ALPA created this mess back in the Babbitt days. If they had allowed the "commuters" to merge with the mainline carriers and held scope at nothing, none of this would have happened. But when they let scope go on 50 seat jets, it set the ball rolling downhill. Now we're in a place where management has used this to virtually eliminate domestic narrow body mainline flying and farm those jobs out to regionals with ever bigger planes, and ever more junior seniority lists. It really hurt the mainline pilots more than the regional pilots. As you said, airline flying is no longer a career, it's just a job. There s no true job security, even at the mainlines, because there's no barriers to entry into this profession, and there's always cheaper pilots willing to do your job.
The only solution is for the mainline pilots to bite the bullet and give concessions to take all of it in house. All RJ flying goes to mainline, and all regional pilots get stapled. But we all know that will never happen.
So we will see this trend continue. "Legacy" regionals like Eagle, ASA, Comair and Mesaba will continue to disappear and upstarts like GoJets will grow. Until they become the "Legacies" in 10 years or so. Then wash, rinse, repeat.
07-03-2010, 06:30 AM
#22
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
You're absolutely right. And do you know what caused it? ALPA refusing to push for inclusion, and instead attempting to exclude regional pilots from the Master's table, while throwing out the scraps they didn't want. Well the kids ate those scraps and kept getting bigger until they no longer fit at the kids table. So the Master was faced with either buying them a bigger table or replacing them with new kids. Guess what happened?
ALPA created this mess back in the Babbitt days. If they had allowed the "commuters" to merge with the mainline carriers and held scope at nothing, none of this would have happened. But when they let scope go on 50 seat jets, it set the ball rolling downhill. Now we're in a place where management has used this to virtually eliminate domestic narrow body mainline flying and farm those jobs out to regionals with ever bigger planes, and ever more junior seniority lists. It really hurt the mainline pilots more than the regional pilots. As you said, airline flying is no longer a career, it's just a job. There s no true job security, even at the mainlines, because there's no barriers to entry into this profession, and there's always cheaper pilots willing to do your job.
The only solution is for the mainline pilots to bite the bullet and give concessions to take all of it in house. All RJ flying goes to mainline, and all regional pilots get stapled. But we all know that will never happen.
So we will see this trend continue. "Legacy" regionals like Eagle, ASA, Comair and Mesaba will continue to disappear and upstarts like GoJets will grow. Until they become the "Legacies" in 10 years or so. Then wash, rinse, repeat.
ALPA created this mess back in the Babbitt days. If they had allowed the "commuters" to merge with the mainline carriers and held scope at nothing, none of this would have happened. But when they let scope go on 50 seat jets, it set the ball rolling downhill. Now we're in a place where management has used this to virtually eliminate domestic narrow body mainline flying and farm those jobs out to regionals with ever bigger planes, and ever more junior seniority lists. It really hurt the mainline pilots more than the regional pilots. As you said, airline flying is no longer a career, it's just a job. There s no true job security, even at the mainlines, because there's no barriers to entry into this profession, and there's always cheaper pilots willing to do your job.
The only solution is for the mainline pilots to bite the bullet and give concessions to take all of it in house. All RJ flying goes to mainline, and all regional pilots get stapled. But we all know that will never happen.
So we will see this trend continue. "Legacy" regionals like Eagle, ASA, Comair and Mesaba will continue to disappear and upstarts like GoJets will grow. Until they become the "Legacies" in 10 years or so. Then wash, rinse, repeat.
The grumbling now of regional pilots whining about pay, schedules, THEIR upgrades, scope this, transfer that, merge here, shutdown there is only the uncomfortable transition (which is steady and unyielding). Same for the common trait among pilots to attack each other while being manipulated from outside, simultaneously being smacked with the right hand by their employers or pickpocketed with the left hand by their supposed protectors.
Once fully in place in 7-10 years, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in suicides among all the kids now who thought (and expected) their dreams to come true only to realize then in their 40's, discovering the the reality playing out before them in the past was a product of their own denial and something they helped create.
They'll be the 'senior guys' then, but WITHOUT the benefits the senior ones have today. Stuck at Mesa type regionals as the "lifers" they ridicule today for only very modest income improvements, the same treatment and schedules/staffing, but yes, larger planes. Little hope of improvement, due to the stagnation above at the major level (and their age) and most distressingly, virtually no chance of changing anything in-house because any strike would certainly fail, since ALL the major carriers (actually it looks like eventually only 3) will have successful stables of a few regionals each flying from every hub (even each flying to the same cities) to insure any one regional can never cripple the major and could be easily outlasted in any strike.......that's if they would even be allowed to strike.
I don't see much hope for a good outcome for most any airline pilot of the future, with the exceptions of those senior at the majors waiting for the right time to eject or those who'll make captain there in the next 5 years or so and can at least keep most of the stench below them. ALPA on the other hand will continue to work dilligently to maintain the appearance as a mover and a shaker with a nice magazine displaying supposedly important articles and a lot of impressive picures of the upper elite with their hands up talking like they're actually saying something important, but primarily concerned with their own revenue stream.
Clueless pilots will fall for almost anything nowadays.............
07-06-2010, 09:40 AM
#25
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
My guess is another 2-3 years to milk that fat cow furiously getting every last drop until she is led out of the barn and replaced with a scraggly goat.
07-08-2010, 10:04 AM
#27
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 89
Eaglefly,
Generally, I think that your posts are very insightful, based on fact and are for the most part unbiased. But here you are making some broad generalizations about a group you may be out of touch with.
"To them, all that's important is "right now". Getting jet PIC time and being able to make the payments on a new 'vette is important for 27 year olds, not what might be in their best interest in 15 years. Pilots are great at flying planes, but pretty stupid in many other ways."
I work at Eagle and fit right into your 27 year old category. I don't really have anything as extravagant as a 'vette and I don't know any other FO's here that are worried about making payments on anything other than their homes and providing for their families.
To suggest this causes you to sound like you don't respect many of the FO's you fly with or consider them very responsible. Sure, I am probably guilty of being worried about things in the present that may be considered trivial and superficial. But to suggest that FO's at Eagle, both junior and senior, are not concerned about their future at this airline as well as their potential careers outside of Eagle is just ludicrous.
You seem to put a lot of responsibility on the young pilots for both the state of the industry today as well as where it is headed in the future. No doubt, we will have to live up to the task as the senior guys retire and we move up the ranks. But tell me, what are you and your senior peers doing to help the problem?
"My guess is another 2-3 years to milk that fat cow furiously getting every last drop until she is led out of the barn and replaced with a scraggly goat."
Apparently, not much. Anyone else see a "ME ME" attitude here? One normally reserved for the 27 year old with a "vette" looking for fast PIC.
I'm not trying to suggest it's all on you and your peer group, but geez, throw me a bone here. Educate the young guys so we can work together. We are willing to listen. I'm just tired of hearing from senior captains, " hurry up and leave Eagle." Wow, that's the best advice I've heard, why didn't I think of that?
Seems like they already gave up.
Lets get those golden days back in any form we can
Generally, I think that your posts are very insightful, based on fact and are for the most part unbiased. But here you are making some broad generalizations about a group you may be out of touch with.
"To them, all that's important is "right now". Getting jet PIC time and being able to make the payments on a new 'vette is important for 27 year olds, not what might be in their best interest in 15 years. Pilots are great at flying planes, but pretty stupid in many other ways."
I work at Eagle and fit right into your 27 year old category. I don't really have anything as extravagant as a 'vette and I don't know any other FO's here that are worried about making payments on anything other than their homes and providing for their families.
To suggest this causes you to sound like you don't respect many of the FO's you fly with or consider them very responsible. Sure, I am probably guilty of being worried about things in the present that may be considered trivial and superficial. But to suggest that FO's at Eagle, both junior and senior, are not concerned about their future at this airline as well as their potential careers outside of Eagle is just ludicrous.
You seem to put a lot of responsibility on the young pilots for both the state of the industry today as well as where it is headed in the future. No doubt, we will have to live up to the task as the senior guys retire and we move up the ranks. But tell me, what are you and your senior peers doing to help the problem?
"My guess is another 2-3 years to milk that fat cow furiously getting every last drop until she is led out of the barn and replaced with a scraggly goat."
Apparently, not much. Anyone else see a "ME ME" attitude here? One normally reserved for the 27 year old with a "vette" looking for fast PIC.
I'm not trying to suggest it's all on you and your peer group, but geez, throw me a bone here. Educate the young guys so we can work together. We are willing to listen. I'm just tired of hearing from senior captains, " hurry up and leave Eagle." Wow, that's the best advice I've heard, why didn't I think of that?
Seems like they already gave up.
Lets get those golden days back in any form we can
07-08-2010, 03:27 PM
#28
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Eaglefly,
Generally, I think that your posts are very insightful, based on fact and are for the most part unbiased. But here you are making some broad generalizations about a group you may be out of touch with.
"To them, all that's important is "right now". Getting jet PIC time and being able to make the payments on a new 'vette is important for 27 year olds, not what might be in their best interest in 15 years. Pilots are great at flying planes, but pretty stupid in many other ways."
I work at Eagle and fit right into your 27 year old category. I don't really have anything as extravagant as a 'vette and I don't know any other FO's here that are worried about making payments on anything other than their homes and providing for their families.
To suggest this causes you to sound like you don't respect many of the FO's you fly with or consider them very responsible. Sure, I am probably guilty of being worried about things in the present that may be considered trivial and superficial. But to suggest that FO's at Eagle, both junior and senior, are not concerned about their future at this airline as well as their potential careers outside of Eagle is just ludicrous.
Generally, I think that your posts are very insightful, based on fact and are for the most part unbiased. But here you are making some broad generalizations about a group you may be out of touch with.
"To them, all that's important is "right now". Getting jet PIC time and being able to make the payments on a new 'vette is important for 27 year olds, not what might be in their best interest in 15 years. Pilots are great at flying planes, but pretty stupid in many other ways."
I work at Eagle and fit right into your 27 year old category. I don't really have anything as extravagant as a 'vette and I don't know any other FO's here that are worried about making payments on anything other than their homes and providing for their families.
To suggest this causes you to sound like you don't respect many of the FO's you fly with or consider them very responsible. Sure, I am probably guilty of being worried about things in the present that may be considered trivial and superficial. But to suggest that FO's at Eagle, both junior and senior, are not concerned about their future at this airline as well as their potential careers outside of Eagle is just ludicrous.
You seem to put a lot of responsibility on the young pilots for both the state of the industry today as well as where it is headed in the future. No doubt, we will have to live up to the task as the senior guys retire and we move up the ranks. But tell me, what are you and your senior peers doing to help the problem?
As far as "helping" to solve the problem, that will have little to do with older, more senior regional "lifers" as so many both young at the regionals focus their bullseye on our backs and those at the majors who have focused their bullseye on our fronts look to make us disappear. IMO, the pilots at the majors have lost the battle and ALPA at least is an emasculated entity. What the APA does on AA property is yet to be revealed, but their idea of napalming Eagle and all RJ's for that matter doesn't inspire confidence of solving any problems.
"My guess is another 2-3 years to milk that fat cow furiously getting every last drop until she is led out of the barn and replaced with a scraggly goat."
Apparently, not much. Anyone else see a "ME ME" attitude here? One normally reserved for the 27 year old with a "vette" looking for fast PIC.
I'm not trying to suggest it's all on you and your peer group, but geez, throw me a bone here. Educate the young guys so we can work together. We are willing to listen. I'm just tired of hearing from senior captains, " hurry up and leave Eagle." Wow, that's the best advice I've heard, why didn't I think of that?
Seems like they already gave up.
Lets get those golden days back in any form we can
Apparently, not much. Anyone else see a "ME ME" attitude here? One normally reserved for the 27 year old with a "vette" looking for fast PIC.
I'm not trying to suggest it's all on you and your peer group, but geez, throw me a bone here. Educate the young guys so we can work together. We are willing to listen. I'm just tired of hearing from senior captains, " hurry up and leave Eagle." Wow, that's the best advice I've heard, why didn't I think of that?
Seems like they already gave up.
Lets get those golden days back in any form we can
Ironically, if you read these forums, most of the "hurry up and leave Eagle comments" come from other angry young F/O's. In fact, most of the time a newbie comes aboard asking about Eagle, he's inundated by comments that he should go elsewhere.
07-09-2010, 06:11 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 710
AMR studies letting Eagle leave American's roost - BusinessWeek
AMR studies letting Eagle leave American's roost
By DAVID KOENIG
STORY TOOLS
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DALLAS
For the second time in three years, American Airlines' parent is considering whether to sell or spin off regional carrier American Eagle, which ranks near the bottom of government statistics for airline service.
American, like the other major airlines, needs to cut costs. Outsourcing flights that connect travelers between American's hub airports and smaller cities will help it do that.
But Daniel Garton, the executive recently named to lead the smaller carrier, says keeping control of its own regional flights allows American to be more flexible -- it can change routes or add flights on the fly. So a sale of Eagle isn't inevitable.
If American pushes Eagle from the nest, it will join a trend that's been going on for several years. This week, Delta Air Lines Inc. announced it sold two of its regional carriers for $82.5 million. Increasingly, big airlines are outsourcing their regional flights to cut costs.
In 2007, AMR Corp. said it would divest Eagle and focus on running American. But the plan was scrapped in 2008 when record-high fuel prices hurt the value of regional airlines.
"It was cheaper to keep it than get rid of it," says Robert Herbst, a financial analyst who studies airlines.
Herbst thinks the market for Eagle is better now, and that a potential buyer could be Republic Airways Holdings Inc., which in the past year has bought Frontier and Midwest.
Basili Alukos, an airline analyst for Morningstar, thinks AMR would be smart to sell Eagle. He says there is much excess capacity among regional carriers, and if AMR puts its regional feeder service out to bid, it could cut costs.
Last year, Eagle accounted for 10 percent of AMR's revenue, or $2 billion. First-quarter revenue at Eagle was up 9 percent from a year ago. AMR doesn't say if Eagle is profitable.
Garton, who is also AMR's executive vice president of marketing, says he's been meeting with AMR's bankers before holding serious talks with potential buyers. And he's spending time getting to know Eagle.
Eagle is adding 70-seat aircraft to replace some of its older 50-seaters, which aren't economical at high fuel prices. And it's adding first-class seating on some planes, which should help it compete on business-travel routes such as Chicago-Atlanta and Atlanta-New York LaGuardia.
Eagle has consistently scored near the bottom in the Transportation Department's performance rankings of the 19 largest carriers. In the latest figures, for April, Eagle was tied for last in on-time arrivals and next to last for rates of canceled flights and mishandled baggage. So far this year, it bumps passengers more often than any other airline.
Garton says he doesn't have a magic fix, but he promises more attention to keeping flights on time.
"Although I was a marketing guy," he says, "I realize that you can create a lot of fancy ads, but if you don't deliver, the ads won't be effective."
AMR studies letting Eagle leave American's roost
By DAVID KOENIG
STORY TOOLS
order a reprint
digg this
save to del.icio.us
DALLAS
For the second time in three years, American Airlines' parent is considering whether to sell or spin off regional carrier American Eagle, which ranks near the bottom of government statistics for airline service.
American, like the other major airlines, needs to cut costs. Outsourcing flights that connect travelers between American's hub airports and smaller cities will help it do that.
But Daniel Garton, the executive recently named to lead the smaller carrier, says keeping control of its own regional flights allows American to be more flexible -- it can change routes or add flights on the fly. So a sale of Eagle isn't inevitable.
If American pushes Eagle from the nest, it will join a trend that's been going on for several years. This week, Delta Air Lines Inc. announced it sold two of its regional carriers for $82.5 million. Increasingly, big airlines are outsourcing their regional flights to cut costs.
In 2007, AMR Corp. said it would divest Eagle and focus on running American. But the plan was scrapped in 2008 when record-high fuel prices hurt the value of regional airlines.
"It was cheaper to keep it than get rid of it," says Robert Herbst, a financial analyst who studies airlines.
Herbst thinks the market for Eagle is better now, and that a potential buyer could be Republic Airways Holdings Inc., which in the past year has bought Frontier and Midwest.
Basili Alukos, an airline analyst for Morningstar, thinks AMR would be smart to sell Eagle. He says there is much excess capacity among regional carriers, and if AMR puts its regional feeder service out to bid, it could cut costs.
Last year, Eagle accounted for 10 percent of AMR's revenue, or $2 billion. First-quarter revenue at Eagle was up 9 percent from a year ago. AMR doesn't say if Eagle is profitable.
Garton, who is also AMR's executive vice president of marketing, says he's been meeting with AMR's bankers before holding serious talks with potential buyers. And he's spending time getting to know Eagle.
Eagle is adding 70-seat aircraft to replace some of its older 50-seaters, which aren't economical at high fuel prices. And it's adding first-class seating on some planes, which should help it compete on business-travel routes such as Chicago-Atlanta and Atlanta-New York LaGuardia.
Eagle has consistently scored near the bottom in the Transportation Department's performance rankings of the 19 largest carriers. In the latest figures, for April, Eagle was tied for last in on-time arrivals and next to last for rates of canceled flights and mishandled baggage. So far this year, it bumps passengers more often than any other airline.
Garton says he doesn't have a magic fix, but he promises more attention to keeping flights on time.
"Although I was a marketing guy," he says, "I realize that you can create a lot of fancy ads, but if you don't deliver, the ads won't be effective."
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