Eagle Life
03-29-2012, 08:48 PM
#5501
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 545
Keep hoping. It's AMR's pie, not Eagle's. And the boys at centerpoint won't negotiate with any subcontractor as long as they have 3,000+ pilots on property who are forced to accept whatever contract the judge signs off on.
03-30-2012, 06:22 AM
#5502
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: FO
Posts: 3,044
What regional has the pilots/aircraft to pick up any additional flying right now?
Think about it. By keeping their flying in house AMR can make us (Eagle) do that flying at whatever rate the BK judge agrees to. As opposed to a back and forth negotiation with a subcontractor like Republic or Pinnacle.
Besides, the pilot group at Rebublic is inches away from total implosion. The only real alternative would be Compass, but again they don't have the manpower. Even if they did, Compass couldn't go any cheaper with their rates than they are already at. It would make no economic sense for AMR to outsource.
Lets also not forget that Delta-who Compass currently flies for- would not look to kindly on an agreement with AA. Compass may not want to rock that boat.
Think about it. By keeping their flying in house AMR can make us (Eagle) do that flying at whatever rate the BK judge agrees to. As opposed to a back and forth negotiation with a subcontractor like Republic or Pinnacle.
Besides, the pilot group at Rebublic is inches away from total implosion. The only real alternative would be Compass, but again they don't have the manpower. Even if they did, Compass couldn't go any cheaper with their rates than they are already at. It would make no economic sense for AMR to outsource.
Lets also not forget that Delta-who Compass currently flies for- would not look to kindly on an agreement with AA. Compass may not want to rock that boat.
Unfortunately I saw the same thing happen at Comair. We took the paycuts, got a 76 seat rate, and then saw most of the 76 sweaters go to other carriers while we parked 50 seaters. The furloughed FO's will just go to where the flying is at the other carriers. I hope it turns out different for Eagle, I just don't see it though.
03-30-2012, 06:59 AM
#5503
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
That is all a possibility, there is no telling what kind of crazy things they are cooking up.
But again, remember we are in bankrupcy. AMR can impose anything they want on us, including a new contract. All they need is the judge to sign off on it.
Why would they even bother with whipsaw? The point of that is to create a civil war as a way to get around the unions and our contract. Right now that isn't even nescessary. AMR can get what they want and there is very little any of us can do about it.
They can keep all of this very simple. Keep their regional flying in house under whatever terms they can convince the judge is "fair". Even more simple for AMR would be to staple us to the bottom of AA's seniority list with fences. For all we know that is exactly what is being tossed around.
One AA pilot already told me their pilot group was on board with that idea. So who knows? All I can say is that given our current situation and that we are in bankrupcy it doesn't make any sense for AMR to go through the trouble of whipsaw, outsourcing, or even dangling planes in front of us.
The only person of interest for them right now is the judge. Period. We are all just along for the ride.
But again, remember we are in bankrupcy. AMR can impose anything they want on us, including a new contract. All they need is the judge to sign off on it.
Why would they even bother with whipsaw? The point of that is to create a civil war as a way to get around the unions and our contract. Right now that isn't even nescessary. AMR can get what they want and there is very little any of us can do about it.
They can keep all of this very simple. Keep their regional flying in house under whatever terms they can convince the judge is "fair". Even more simple for AMR would be to staple us to the bottom of AA's seniority list with fences. For all we know that is exactly what is being tossed around.
One AA pilot already told me their pilot group was on board with that idea. So who knows? All I can say is that given our current situation and that we are in bankrupcy it doesn't make any sense for AMR to go through the trouble of whipsaw, outsourcing, or even dangling planes in front of us.
The only person of interest for them right now is the judge. Period. We are all just along for the ride.
Because at some point, you WILL be back in negotiations. A term sheet would make that sooner rather then later. Either way, the whipsaw scenario puts and keeps leverage ALWAYS in the hands of the company. Yes, many here ARE "on board" with an Eagle pilot inclusion for one seniority list, but it has always been AMR who dicides that, so what one pilot says means little as remember that we too are at the mercy of a judge. If AMR sses that arraingement as in their best interest, it could become reality, but if they don't, then forget about it.
Actually, if you read your own term sheet, the "flow though" language and options don't seem to support AMR's interest in an SSL. If they were thinking along SSL lines there would be no need to waste time with all that methodology and language for the 238 or the 824.
03-30-2012, 07:01 AM
#5504
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
This is a serious presumption. I wouldn't be so sure that they aren't talking to others or planning on another entity taking over some of the current Eagle (and AA) flying. You may want to reference Attachment H of your term sheet for more information.
03-30-2012, 07:02 AM
#5505
Underpaid...
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: French-Canadian
Posts: 2,101
Why bother with a whipsaw ?
Because at some point, you WILL be back in negotiations. A term sheet would make that sooner rather then later. Either way, the whipsaw scenario puts and keeps leverage ALWAYS in the hands of the company. Yes, many here ARE "on board" with an Eagle pilot inclusion for one seniority list, but it has always been AMR who dicides that, so what one pilot says means little as remember that we too are at the mercy of a judge. If AMR sses that arraingement as in their best interest, it could become reality, but if they don't forget about it.
Actually, if you read your own term sheet, the "flow though" language and options don't seem to support AMR's interest in an SSL. If they were thinking along SSL lines there would be no need to waste time with all that methodology and language for the 238 or the 824.
Because at some point, you WILL be back in negotiations. A term sheet would make that sooner rather then later. Either way, the whipsaw scenario puts and keeps leverage ALWAYS in the hands of the company. Yes, many here ARE "on board" with an Eagle pilot inclusion for one seniority list, but it has always been AMR who dicides that, so what one pilot says means little as remember that we too are at the mercy of a judge. If AMR sses that arraingement as in their best interest, it could become reality, but if they don't forget about it.
Actually, if you read your own term sheet, the "flow though" language and options don't seem to support AMR's interest in an SSL. If they were thinking along SSL lines there would be no need to waste time with all that methodology and language for the 238 or the 824.
03-30-2012, 07:14 AM
#5506
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 545
Delta woudn't care and I highly doubt Hulas cares about rocking the boat if he could make money. the economic sense in outsourcing is the whipsaw against one another, not necessarily being cheaper right off the bat, but ensuring it stays cheap in the future.
Unfortunately I saw the same thing happen at Comair. We took the paycuts, got a 76 seat rate, and then saw most of the 76 sweaters go to other carriers while we parked 50 seaters. The furloughed FO's will just go to where the flying is at the other carriers. I hope it turns out different for Eagle, I just don't see it though.
Unfortunately I saw the same thing happen at Comair. We took the paycuts, got a 76 seat rate, and then saw most of the 76 sweaters go to other carriers while we parked 50 seaters. The furloughed FO's will just go to where the flying is at the other carriers. I hope it turns out different for Eagle, I just don't see it though.
First, Delta already had ASA doing much of their flying. Prior to their bankruptcy Delta had already made plans to shift much of Comair's routes to ASA.
AMR has no ASA.
Second, the Comair pilot group burned some major bridges with their strike. Their hearts were in the right place, but the timing and how Comair management went about it was very wrong. Delta didn't forgive or forget.
No such bad blood exists between Eagle and AMR. No strikes by our pilot group shutting down operations.
Third, Comair (not the pilots) had a history of incompetence the likes of which had rarely been seen before. Remember the Christmas fiasco? How many thousands of flights were canceled over that week?
Then to add insult to injury their crew scheduling system goes beserk forcing more cancelations.
Eagle had the dynamic manning experiment go wrong this past year, but that was small potatoes compared to the things Comair pullled. Plus the dynamic manning was AMR's idea and was only a test.
When push came to shove Delta was running from Comair. They had ASA and Chatauqua picking up most of their flying and, most imprtantly, doing that flying more efficiently. This is not a reflection on the Comair pilot group who were doing a superior job with what they had to work with.
Comair's story is unique and involves many variables and factors. We can't always scream COMAIR! Everytime a company enters bankruptcy or goes into negotiation with a regional partner.
None of this is to say that AMR isn't capable of anything. I'm just saying we can't use what happend to Comair as a basis for what may or may not happen to Eagle.
03-30-2012, 07:16 AM
#5507
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Previously I put up a post to highlight my opinion that when one considers that methodology, the rates within it, expected inflation and health care increases, it would mean that a future senior, topped-out E175 captain at Eagle would be flying in 2019 for what would be approximately equevilent to about $55,000/year in 2012 earning dollars. Right now, senior, topped out E145 captains are pulling in $100K or more for 25 less seats.
You starting to see the picture here ?
Rock-bottom pilot costs, but they still need some form of whipsaw scenario going forward. It's not just strikes BTW, but coverage for staffing problems, inability to attract pilots or other problems. Still got to avoid having ALL your eggs in one basket even WITH peanuts compensation.
Many of those senior won't come to AA @ $40/hour, commuting to NYC at their ages, so they'll live with the situation or go elsewhere. Some will come over to AA............BUT, AA isn't likely to grow to support any flowthrough anyways as these larger RJ's with these wages will be taking on much of mainlines future flying, so it's likely to be a trickle. If AA merges with U either before C11 exit (Parkers desire) or after (Horton's willingness), then all bets are off and the combined entity has 10 regionals 600 airplanes and 6000 pilots, which is too much. The 2 mainlines might have too many aircraft/pilots too.
What a mess, eh ?
03-30-2012, 07:23 AM
#5508
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
We need to demystify the whole Comair thing once and for all. Not every airline is destined for a "comair" style ending. We can't always play that card.
First, Delta already had ASA doing much of their flying. Prior to their bankruptcy Delta had already made plans to shift much of Comair's routes to ASA.
AMR has no ASA.
Second, the Comair pilot group burned some major bridges with their strike. Their hearts were in the right place, but the timing and how Comair management went about it was very wrong. Delta didn't forgive or forget.
No such bad blood exists between Eagle and AMR. No strikes by our pilot group shutting down operations.
Third, Comair (not the pilots) had a history of incompetence the likes of which had rarely been seen before. Remember the Christmas fiasco? How many thousands of flights were canceled over that week?
Then to add insult to injury their crew scheduling system goes beserk forcing more cancelations.
Eagle had the dynamic manning experiment go wrong this past year, but that was small potatoes compared to the things Comair pullled. Plus the dynamic manning was AMR's idea and was only a test.
When push came to shove Delta was running from Comair. They had ASA and Chatauqua picking up most of their flying and, most imprtantly, doing that flying more efficiently. This is not a reflection on the Comair pilot group who were doing a superior job with what they had to work with.
Comair's story is unique and involves many variables and factors. We can't always scream COMAIR! Everytime a company enters bankruptcy or goes into negotiation with a regional partner.
None of this is to say that AMR isn't capable of anything. I'm just saying we can't use what happend to Comair as a basis for what may or may not happen to Eagle.
First, Delta already had ASA doing much of their flying. Prior to their bankruptcy Delta had already made plans to shift much of Comair's routes to ASA.
AMR has no ASA.
Second, the Comair pilot group burned some major bridges with their strike. Their hearts were in the right place, but the timing and how Comair management went about it was very wrong. Delta didn't forgive or forget.
No such bad blood exists between Eagle and AMR. No strikes by our pilot group shutting down operations.
Third, Comair (not the pilots) had a history of incompetence the likes of which had rarely been seen before. Remember the Christmas fiasco? How many thousands of flights were canceled over that week?
Then to add insult to injury their crew scheduling system goes beserk forcing more cancelations.
Eagle had the dynamic manning experiment go wrong this past year, but that was small potatoes compared to the things Comair pullled. Plus the dynamic manning was AMR's idea and was only a test.
When push came to shove Delta was running from Comair. They had ASA and Chatauqua picking up most of their flying and, most imprtantly, doing that flying more efficiently. This is not a reflection on the Comair pilot group who were doing a superior job with what they had to work with.
Comair's story is unique and involves many variables and factors. We can't always scream COMAIR! Everytime a company enters bankruptcy or goes into negotiation with a regional partner.
None of this is to say that AMR isn't capable of anything. I'm just saying we can't use what happend to Comair as a basis for what may or may not happen to Eagle.
03-30-2012, 07:51 AM
#5509
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Because that way you will finally be able to call yourself an Eagle pilot like you always wanted, right?
Keep hoping. It's AMR's pie, not Eagle's. And the boys at centerpoint won't negotiate with any subcontractor as long as they have 3,000+ pilots on property who are forced to accept whatever contract the judge signs off on.
Keep hoping. It's AMR's pie, not Eagle's. And the boys at centerpoint won't negotiate with any subcontractor as long as they have 3,000+ pilots on property who are forced to accept whatever contract the judge signs off on.
Don't think it won't happen. It happened to Comair, ExpressJet, & ASA just to name a few.
03-30-2012, 07:57 AM
#5510
Underpaid...
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: French-Canadian
Posts: 2,101
I don't see any language that "makes" people flow though. What I do see is a pay control methodology that ensures those who don't, will for the next 8 years fly those 76-seaters for the same rates as the cheapest out there. Actually, at that point, you go into section 6 and you can add anohter 5 years to that.
Previously I put up a post to highlight my opinion that when one considers that methodology, the rates within it, expected inflation and health care increases, it would mean that a future senior, topped-out E175 captain at Eagle would be flying in 2019 for what would be approximately equevilent to about $55,000/year in 2012 earning dollars. Right now, senior, topped out E145 captains are pulling in $100K or more for 25 less seats.
You starting to see the picture here ?
Rock-bottom pilot costs, but they still need some form of whipsaw scenario going forward. It's not just strikes BTW, but coverage for staffing problems, inability to attract pilots or other problems. Still got to avoid having ALL your eggs in one basket even WITH peanuts compensation.
Many of those senior won't come to AA @ $40/hour, commuting to NYC at their ages, so they'll live with the situation or go elsewhere. Some will come over to AA............BUT, AA isn't likely to grow to support any flowthrough anyways as these larger RJ's with these wages will be taking on much of mainlines future flying, so it's likely to be a trickle. If AA merges with U either before C11 exit (Parkers desire) or after (Horton's willingness), then all bets are off and the combined entity has 10 regionals 600 airplanes and 6000 pilots, which is too much. The 2 mainlines might have too many aircraft/pilots too.
What a mess, eh ?
Previously I put up a post to highlight my opinion that when one considers that methodology, the rates within it, expected inflation and health care increases, it would mean that a future senior, topped-out E175 captain at Eagle would be flying in 2019 for what would be approximately equevilent to about $55,000/year in 2012 earning dollars. Right now, senior, topped out E145 captains are pulling in $100K or more for 25 less seats.
You starting to see the picture here ?
Rock-bottom pilot costs, but they still need some form of whipsaw scenario going forward. It's not just strikes BTW, but coverage for staffing problems, inability to attract pilots or other problems. Still got to avoid having ALL your eggs in one basket even WITH peanuts compensation.
Many of those senior won't come to AA @ $40/hour, commuting to NYC at their ages, so they'll live with the situation or go elsewhere. Some will come over to AA............BUT, AA isn't likely to grow to support any flowthrough anyways as these larger RJ's with these wages will be taking on much of mainlines future flying, so it's likely to be a trickle. If AA merges with U either before C11 exit (Parkers desire) or after (Horton's willingness), then all bets are off and the combined entity has 10 regionals 600 airplanes and 6000 pilots, which is too much. The 2 mainlines might have too many aircraft/pilots too.
What a mess, eh ?
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