Time for a Minimum Wage for Airline Pilots
02-11-2010, 01:43 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 154
I think I do.
I think you have to account for more than just supply and demand here. You are not wrong in thinking that higher requirements would result in fewer applicants. I agree. A sudden restriction in supply most deffinitely would increase wages as well.
Read on, if you can handle it;
Things that will not change by implementing 'barriers to entry' are things like the seniority pay scales and pic requirements at majors. These two items alone are enough to cause Colgan pilots to be willing to work for less than Comair pilots, for example. If it means 'fast upgrade, fast track to higher wages' then pilots will continue to undercut eachother for the same reasons, and eventually you will lose any and all gains associated with increasing the barriers to entry.
So lets call eachother idiots and pretend nobody knows what they are talking about some more.
I think you have to account for more than just supply and demand here. You are not wrong in thinking that higher requirements would result in fewer applicants. I agree. A sudden restriction in supply most deffinitely would increase wages as well.
Read on, if you can handle it;
Things that will not change by implementing 'barriers to entry' are things like the seniority pay scales and pic requirements at majors. These two items alone are enough to cause Colgan pilots to be willing to work for less than Comair pilots, for example. If it means 'fast upgrade, fast track to higher wages' then pilots will continue to undercut eachother for the same reasons, and eventually you will lose any and all gains associated with increasing the barriers to entry.
So lets call eachother idiots and pretend nobody knows what they are talking about some more.
I agree with you that a lot of pilots are looking for a fast upgrade and fastrack to the majors, and I agree that some pay will be lost because of that mentality, but the point is that if the requirements to become a first officer at a regional are raised, then there will be a reduction in pilots available. Lets say all airlines are hiring at a steady rate and at the same time the barriers to entry were raised. where you once had lets say 3000 applicants competing for 500 jobs you now only have 400 applicants available willing to work for 20k a year. the airlines now have a 100 position void to fill. where will they get these pilots from? they would need some incentive to get people to work there, typically $$$. those qualified pilots that have left flying to go work at the local cement factory, quit to take care of the kids at home, etc...these guys need the will to come back to aviation and when they weren't willing to go for 20k maybe they will for 30k. so airlines will be forced to raise pay. think of it this way, if the faa raised the minimum requirement to be an airline pilot to "former space shuttle commander," do you think pay would remain at 20k a year.
02-11-2010, 02:02 PM
#22
Kerbal Rocket Surgeon
Joined APC: Dec 2007
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Posts: 1,099
I agree with you that a lot of pilots are looking for a fast upgrade and fastrack to the majors, and I agree that some pay will be lost because of that mentality, but the point is that if the requirements to become a first officer at a regional are raised, then there will be a reduction in pilots available. Lets say all airlines are hiring at a steady rate and at the same time the barriers to entry were raised. where you once had lets say 3000 applicants competing for 500 jobs you now only have 400 applicants available willing to work for 20k a year. the airlines now have a 100 position void to fill. where will they get these pilots from? they would need some incentive to get people to work there, typically $$$. those qualified pilots that have left flying to go work at the local cement factory, quit to take care of the kids at home, etc...these guys need the will to come back to aviation and when they weren't willing to go for 20k maybe they will for 30k. so airlines will be forced to raise pay. think of it this way, if the faa raised the minimum requirement to be an airline pilot to "former space shuttle commander," do you think pay would remain at 20k a year.
Originally Posted by phuz
You are not wrong in thinking that higher requirements would result in fewer applicants. I agree. A sudden restriction in supply most deffinitely would increase wages as well.
02-11-2010, 02:04 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 517
The government will NEVER institute such a minimum wage EVER. Even they think it would be a good idea, it would open up a pandora's box...every other worker group in the nation who could remotely relate their job to public safety would demand the same amount.
Paramedics, lifeguards, school crossing guards, bus drivers, janitors, jiffy-lube technicians, etc, etc
The only way pay will go up is due to market forces...which could be an indirect result of hire experience/certification standards.
Paramedics, lifeguards, school crossing guards, bus drivers, janitors, jiffy-lube technicians, etc, etc
The only way pay will go up is due to market forces...which could be an indirect result of hire experience/certification standards.
02-11-2010, 03:46 PM
#24
Prime Minister/Moderator
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02-11-2010, 04:32 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: Up Front.
Posts: 253
I've enjoyed reading the different perspectives on this subject matter.
I believe it wasn't long ago that the hour requirements for a new FO were in fact around the 2500 hour mark. Pay back then, was in fact STILL shabby. Many argue that this is because 'back then' the flying was done in smaller aircraft and the pay scale reflected that......well guess what Mr. CEO there Is nothing regional about a RJ......only the name. I'm up for anything to get our pay where it needs to be. Back when I did my Aero degree we always had heated discussions on the pros and cons of the deregulation of '78. I'm all for the free market....but when all the players in our small world are a bunch of crooks something has got to give.
I believe it wasn't long ago that the hour requirements for a new FO were in fact around the 2500 hour mark. Pay back then, was in fact STILL shabby. Many argue that this is because 'back then' the flying was done in smaller aircraft and the pay scale reflected that......well guess what Mr. CEO there Is nothing regional about a RJ......only the name. I'm up for anything to get our pay where it needs to be. Back when I did my Aero degree we always had heated discussions on the pros and cons of the deregulation of '78. I'm all for the free market....but when all the players in our small world are a bunch of crooks something has got to give.
02-11-2010, 05:27 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
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I believe it wasn't long ago that the hour requirements for a new FO were in fact around the 2500 hour mark. Pay back then, was in fact STILL shabby. Many argue that this is because 'back then' the flying was done in smaller aircraft and the pay scale reflected that......
AWAC and AE's mins USED to be 2500tt, 1000 multi, preferably 500 turbine with some prior 121/135 experience. Allegheny/Piedmont's were pretty similar.
Paying that money all for the privilege to be an FO on on a 19 seat turbo prop making $12-13-14/hr. And heck, if you were lucky enough to get hired into the 120/SAAB/-8, you hit the big time!
02-11-2010, 05:52 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,109
I still think all they need to do is repeal the RLA and let the pilots finally negotiate for themselves...
Contract's up tomorrow? Sign something or deal with the strike. Don't like paying your pilots more? Then be shut down. Simple.
Contract's up tomorrow? Sign something or deal with the strike. Don't like paying your pilots more? Then be shut down. Simple.
02-11-2010, 06:00 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
But yeah, the thing needs to go away, and sliding the airlines out from underneath it would be a good start.
02-11-2010, 06:01 PM
#29
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02-12-2010, 06:27 AM
#30
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,044
I've enjoyed reading the different perspectives on this subject matter.
I believe it wasn't long ago that the hour requirements for a new FO were in fact around the 2500 hour mark. Pay back then, was in fact STILL shabby. Many argue that this is because 'back then' the flying was done in smaller aircraft and the pay scale reflected that......well guess what Mr. CEO there Is nothing regional about a RJ......only the name. I'm up for anything to get our pay where it needs to be. Back when I did my Aero degree we always had heated discussions on the pros and cons of the deregulation of '78. I'm all for the free market....but when all the players in our small world are a bunch of crooks something has got to give.
I believe it wasn't long ago that the hour requirements for a new FO were in fact around the 2500 hour mark. Pay back then, was in fact STILL shabby. Many argue that this is because 'back then' the flying was done in smaller aircraft and the pay scale reflected that......well guess what Mr. CEO there Is nothing regional about a RJ......only the name. I'm up for anything to get our pay where it needs to be. Back when I did my Aero degree we always had heated discussions on the pros and cons of the deregulation of '78. I'm all for the free market....but when all the players in our small world are a bunch of crooks something has got to give.
But there was one HUGE difference back then...those pilots were truly paying dues with a reasonable expectation of a six-figure income in a couple short years.
If a major FO got $100K back in say 1980, that actually works out to about $260K in todays dollars
I'd pay some dues even for a fair shot at that deal!
Unfortunately us regional pilots inherited that commuter dues-paying mentality...of course what we didn't inherit was the spectacular opportunities that used to come with it. A lot of regional CA's can't afford the pay and/or QOL cut they would incur if they took a major job...
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