ANPRM: New 121 Pilot Certification Rqmts.
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ CA
Posts: 117
Well hopefully rules like requiring an ATP and having tighter training would help reduce this mountain of resumes. Currently you can run off to Gulfstream and be in an airliner in less than 6 months, presumably. That means any Joe Two-teeth can sign up and be a fancy airline pilot. Not the type of professional college grad the public (and us) want in the front office.
While the gov't can't set artificial pay levels it can set up barriers to entry. They did it back in the day by requiring pilot licenses which was in the name of safety (can't just let anyone hop in an airplane and go for a spin, literally). Nothing wrong with saying that we don't believe 250 hours makes you a good candidate for a job at an airliner or the type of training needs to change. I think the fact that there are too many pilots out there clamoring for these low-end jobs is proof positive that it's WAY too easy to get into this biz.
While the gov't can't set artificial pay levels it can set up barriers to entry. They did it back in the day by requiring pilot licenses which was in the name of safety (can't just let anyone hop in an airplane and go for a spin, literally). Nothing wrong with saying that we don't believe 250 hours makes you a good candidate for a job at an airliner or the type of training needs to change. I think the fact that there are too many pilots out there clamoring for these low-end jobs is proof positive that it's WAY too easy to get into this biz.
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: Airbus
Posts: 634
Testimony today:
YouTube - HouseTransInf's Channel
Vote here:
WashingtonWatch.com - H.R. 3371, The Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009
Your vote is important, my vote changed the results by 1%......
Transportation and Infrastructure Committee: Press Release :: T&I Subcommittee Reviews Safety Program
YouTube - HouseTransInf's Channel
Vote here:
WashingtonWatch.com - H.R. 3371, The Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009
Your vote is important, my vote changed the results by 1%......
Transportation and Infrastructure Committee: Press Release :: T&I Subcommittee Reviews Safety Program
#13
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
When a ANPRM is put out for public comment, who is exactly the audience they are targeting in the public. Are they looking for comment from passengers, airline managements, pilots, senators, etc?
I still don't understand why senators who have no knowledge of Industry weigh so heavily on its outcome. The FAA should be listening to recommendations by the NTSB and the DOT. There are so many document cases in the past 20 years where people have died in aircraft accidents when they could have been avoided had the FAA actually made changes according to the NTSB's recommendations. Comair 3272 would be one of them.
I think the FAA needs a complete overhaul. Anymore it is about as worthless as an airline union(association.) The FAA backs down from airline managements more so than ALPA does. It's disgusting!
I still don't understand why senators who have no knowledge of Industry weigh so heavily on its outcome. The FAA should be listening to recommendations by the NTSB and the DOT. There are so many document cases in the past 20 years where people have died in aircraft accidents when they could have been avoided had the FAA actually made changes according to the NTSB's recommendations. Comair 3272 would be one of them.
I think the FAA needs a complete overhaul. Anymore it is about as worthless as an airline union(association.) The FAA backs down from airline managements more so than ALPA does. It's disgusting!
Absolutely correct. I have been preaching this for 5 years. If we can get an ATP mandated for 121 ops it will be the best thing to happen for pilots in years. Why isn't mighty ALPA shouting that low time pilot's are unsafe from the rooftops? They are too scared of upsetting some of the 700 hour ALPA pilots.
#14
Absolutely correct. I have been preaching this for 5 years. If we can get an ATP mandated for 121 ops it will be the best thing to happen for pilots in years. Why isn't mighty ALPA shouting that low time pilot's are unsafe from the rooftops? They are too scared of upsetting some of the 700 hour ALPA pilots.
#16
100% correct however the reality of the situation is that you just don't find military guys going into the airlines any more. Civilian outfits are generating pilots that are willing to work for far, far less than the military counterpart with the same or less hours. Therefore, to ensure that the same level of proficiency in an airliner, one of the things to do is to raise the minimum hours. One of the biggest downfalls of the FAA has not been to change regulations to reflect a changing environment. 250 hours to sit right seat was fine in the 1950s when it was all military guys and you were taught to be a great airman before moving over to the left side. Not so much anymore.
#17
You also mention selection process. There is only one measurable way to raise the selction process without involving subjective judgment of individual interviewers. Raise the minimums to even apply for Part 121 jobs. ATP should be the bare minimum. The payrate should be adjusted accordingly.
#18
You are certainly not the first person to make this comparison but that is not a good comparison. In fact there is no comparison. There is a big difference between puddling around in a school C172 or a DA40 single engine airplane at 135 kts for 250 hours and going through intense military flight training in F18s or F16s for 250 hours.
You also mention selection process. There is only one measurable way to raise the selction process without involving subjective judgment of individual interviewers. Raise the minimums to even apply for Part 121 jobs. ATP should be the bare minimum. The payrate should be adjusted accordingly.
You also mention selection process. There is only one measurable way to raise the selction process without involving subjective judgment of individual interviewers. Raise the minimums to even apply for Part 121 jobs. ATP should be the bare minimum. The payrate should be adjusted accordingly.
#19
I agree with the min. time increase (to ATP min.), but my question is, why would pay go up? When I was hired, the minimums at my airline were 1200 TT and 200 multi. The pay scale now is the same as it was then, but in the past year and a half, people were hired at 240 TT. So, if raised back to 1500 TT, the airlines would probably just keep the same pay. After all, we took that pay a few years ago when they wanted 1200 TT.
Payrate will not go up unless airlines are regulated by the government but that is not going to happen.
Hiring standard needs to go up. ATP, 1500 hours and documented part 135 or CFI experience and a college degree should be the minimum.
#20
AT the end of last summer we picked up a few new CFI's. One was very ****ed off that he was instructing instead of at an airline. "In June when I started they told me I'd be flying at a Regional by the end of the summer." This was September and he had about 270 hours.
For him..becoming a pilot was something to do over summer break and in his mind a 60K investment was well worth it to be an airline pilot in 3 short months. Although we all know the truth about the industry..Ive actually heard the same BS marketing still going on. Just last week I heard "Theres no better time to train for an exciting career as an airline pilot!!" at the local pilot-mill.
All it takes is a small turn around and you'll see the truth twisted until slots are filled with guys who scoff at anything other than RSD (right seat direct).
While ATP is not a cure all for what ails the industry (I'd like to see fatigue addressed) it can help thin the herd of the ZERO to HERO over summer breakers.
For him..becoming a pilot was something to do over summer break and in his mind a 60K investment was well worth it to be an airline pilot in 3 short months. Although we all know the truth about the industry..Ive actually heard the same BS marketing still going on. Just last week I heard "Theres no better time to train for an exciting career as an airline pilot!!" at the local pilot-mill.
All it takes is a small turn around and you'll see the truth twisted until slots are filled with guys who scoff at anything other than RSD (right seat direct).
While ATP is not a cure all for what ails the industry (I'd like to see fatigue addressed) it can help thin the herd of the ZERO to HERO over summer breakers.
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