Pinnacle CA suspended
#61
I laugh at you guys talking all this freight dog crap. I was a single pilot night ifr guy and I can tell you that doing that type of flying has given me the guts, or whatever you want to call it, to say no. Being a freight dog doesn't make you a better pilot per se, but it helps you make better decisions. You learn really quickly when you have bit off more than you can chew when you are the only one in the plane flying. There are more than a couple flights I can look back on and think to myself, man I should have stayed on the ground. Now that I am a captain with OTHER peoples lives in the back I need to evaluate everything that much more closely. Anyone bringing the freight dog attitude to the airlines is just looking for trouble and when they find it all the people they were entrusted with will pay the price.
You laugh at the single pilot freight dogs eh? Well, anything that gets the person flying, in the weather, and making decisions will help. Sitting in the right seat of a C-152 does not help that but it does prepare you to move on the the next step. Most pilots over the last 7 years have skipped the freight, canyon, and Alaska flying that we all used to do. Good thing the majors have not been hiring. This stagnation will help those with less experience get a few hard winters under their belt. You helped prove my point in your post. Acting as the PIC, flying in the weather, honed your instrument and decision making skills. Good for you. I know I'll be safer non-reving in the back of your plane.
#62
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: A320A
Posts: 45
The following was in a letter of agreement at NWA from 1989 through the last contract:
From what I read in the original post, it sounds like the Captain made a good decision. This is not a contest to see how great a pilot you are because you've flown without an autopilot before - this is about safety. Apparently the pilots at Northwest thought it important enough to include it in their contract for years.
6. Departure without at least one (1) functioning autopilot shall be at the captain’s discretion. Every effort will be made to effect repairs at the first maintenance base.
From what I read in the original post, it sounds like the Captain made a good decision. This is not a contest to see how great a pilot you are because you've flown without an autopilot before - this is about safety. Apparently the pilots at Northwest thought it important enough to include it in their contract for years.
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: Computer desk
Posts: 118
I'm not talking about machoism, or coolness, or manliness. I could not care less about that stuff. I'm not talking about extra time in the sim. All I'm saying is, in preparation for the possibility that the autopilot will fail, or the possibility of it being deferred, being able to hand fly it without worrying about safety being affected does not seem too unreasonable, or crazy, to me. Being able to fly an approach is not too crazy and unreasonable, to me. It doesn't matter if you are trained to do it in the sim, or not. It's called having the ability to fly the airplane in the IFR environment. How is that unreasonable???
Peace out.
Leardriver
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ
Posts: 2,356
You laugh at the single pilot freight dogs eh? Well, anything that gets the person flying, in the weather, and making decisions will help. Sitting in the right seat of a C-152 does not help that but it does prepare you to move on the the next step. Most pilots over the last 7 years have skipped the freight, canyon, and Alaska flying that we all used to do. Good thing the majors have not been hiring. This stagnation will help those with less experience get a few hard winters under their belt. You helped prove my point in your post. Acting as the PIC, flying in the weather, honed your instrument and decision making skills. Good for you. I know I'll be safer non-reving in the back of your plane.
Now my cargo is far more valuable than a bunch of checks. My cargo is moms, dads, brothers, sisters, my wife and kids etc etc. Anytime now that I feel something is not right I dont do it. I used up all my luck flying checks around. Now sound judgement and not taking unecassary risks is my motto. I know my limits. I know when I am biting off more than I can chew and I just dont do it. My passengers may hate me for it as they are giving me dirty looks while we deplane. That is fine. That is what I am asked to do. Be responsible and take charge. My kids dad is on the plane and they expect him to come home safely every time and that is what I intend on doing.
Here is a little story to illustrate my point:
The owner of a trucking company is looking to hire a driver to carry cargo up and down a mountain. The road is narrow and along a cliff. Three guys showed up for the interview and the owner explained to them the conditions and that great skill would be needed to drive the trucks up the narrow mountain passes. The first guy said, "I can drive the car within 6 inches of the ledge, thats how good I am". The next guy said, "Well I can drive the truck within 4 inches of the ledge, thats how good a driver I am." The last guy got the job when he said, "I will stay as far away from the ledge as I can."
Last edited by Airsupport; 02-03-2010 at 12:44 PM.
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 888
Well since we're saying what we think...
He should have accepted the flight and taken off, hand flown (600 foot ceiling, give me a break, that's easy money), the aircraft was airworthy in every respect and the weather was dispatch-able.
Now, when they got there and attempted their approach and at that point decided that it was either unstable (due to them being not being proficient or the weather being that bad), unable to land due to any other circumstance they should have turned around and come right back, at that point making the PIC decision to do so... I will never question the reason someone turns around and nobody else ever should, however I will question someone who doesn't want to go flying in reasonable weather and in a good airplane when asked to do so. When you sit on the ground several hundred miles away and make the decision that you already know you can't do the flight safely you're sending the signal that you are either unsure of yourself (with or without reason), lazy or just not wanting to do your job, you get paid to fly not come up with invalid reasons not to fly.
He should have accepted the flight and taken off, hand flown (600 foot ceiling, give me a break, that's easy money), the aircraft was airworthy in every respect and the weather was dispatch-able.
Now, when they got there and attempted their approach and at that point decided that it was either unstable (due to them being not being proficient or the weather being that bad), unable to land due to any other circumstance they should have turned around and come right back, at that point making the PIC decision to do so... I will never question the reason someone turns around and nobody else ever should, however I will question someone who doesn't want to go flying in reasonable weather and in a good airplane when asked to do so. When you sit on the ground several hundred miles away and make the decision that you already know you can't do the flight safely you're sending the signal that you are either unsure of yourself (with or without reason), lazy or just not wanting to do your job, you get paid to fly not come up with invalid reasons not to fly.
In 121 you just almost never cancel a flight, I'm sure this captain knew that but was seeing the pieces start to fall into place and said, "No Thanks"
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
If you're talking just the suspension, doubt it since PRIA is about training ONLY, not being disciplined or what goes in your personal file at your emloyer.
Now, if for some reason it's determined by the braintrust of flight ops management that the CA has to go to some kind of training for his actions and he bonks it, well, MAYBE that might show up. But I doubt it, and has NOTHING to do with the suspension in the first place. All that is is a hypothetical scenario.
I think the ONLY place where the CA will have to deal with it is if he interviews and the app and/or interviewer asks if the pilot has ever been "disciplined". And just going on what's been provided, it'd probably be a slam dunk on his part as long as he answered the question with the objective facts, states why he did it, and leaves emotion and opinion of PCL management out of it.
Now, if for some reason it's determined by the braintrust of flight ops management that the CA has to go to some kind of training for his actions and he bonks it, well, MAYBE that might show up. But I doubt it, and has NOTHING to do with the suspension in the first place. All that is is a hypothetical scenario.
I think the ONLY place where the CA will have to deal with it is if he interviews and the app and/or interviewer asks if the pilot has ever been "disciplined". And just going on what's been provided, it'd probably be a slam dunk on his part as long as he answered the question with the objective facts, states why he did it, and leaves emotion and opinion of PCL management out of it.
#69
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 25
I agree though. He should have just waited it out till the weather cleared.
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 888
Oh, how silly of me, I thought prior experience IS how you make good decisions. My fault, just ignore all prior experience sounds like an AWESOME plan.
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01-22-2009 07:17 AM