Pinnacle CA suspended
02-03-2010, 10:29 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Furloughed
Posts: 281
Let me get this all straight from reading the entire post.
1) A busted airplane, with a significant and possibly other MELs
2) No swaps available
3) Pressure to fly in weather and stuck in it (no RVSM) with no autopilot
4) Just see if another pilot will do it when one has already decided its not safe
5) Significant delay to call out said reserve pilot
6) Significant discipline for someone who put their foot down and said it wasn't safe
Is anyone surprised? This is Pinnacle we're talking about. People are acting like there is a reputable carrier involved in this discussion.
1) A busted airplane, with a significant and possibly other MELs
2) No swaps available
3) Pressure to fly in weather and stuck in it (no RVSM) with no autopilot
4) Just see if another pilot will do it when one has already decided its not safe
5) Significant delay to call out said reserve pilot
6) Significant discipline for someone who put their foot down and said it wasn't safe
Is anyone surprised? This is Pinnacle we're talking about. People are acting like there is a reputable carrier involved in this discussion.
02-03-2010, 10:41 AM
#53
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,108
Why are you guys not current on this? If your company has the ability to defer the autopilot system, it must occur to you that an autopilot deferal is a very realistic possibility that may pop up in daily line flying. That being the case, part of being a professional, to me, would include having the professional ability to deal with this situation. That would mean staying current on hand flying the aircraft, and even hand flying more complicated approaches. I'm not saying I'm better than RJ pilots, or cooler than RJ pilots, or have more skills than RJ pilots...I'm not, and I don't believe that at all. I'm just not understanding the justification for non-acceptance of this aircraft. I understand that it's the PIC's discretion; but, at the same time, part of our job, as professionals, is to be an effective part of the chain of providing efficient and reliable transportation to our customers. We can't be scared of flying things to mins, unless there is a reasonable justification for believing safety is affected. I'm not seeing the reasonable justification here...unless, like I say, he wasn't comfortable with hand flying the aircraft...which goes back to the whole professionalism thing...In the end, I'm just saying I'm not understanding this situation, perhaps, maybe, because I don't have the full story. No judgements; just questions. On the surface, it doesn't make sense to me. There may be much, much more to the story than what I'm seeing here, which may cause me to actually agree with this CA's decision.
In 6+ years and about 4000 hours of airline flying I have never had a deferred autopilot. At my company we are not allowed to handfly above FL200.
It's not about being manly here, it's about safety. For most RJ drivers the right answer is to not do a complex non-prec approach with multiple risk factors and no AP.
02-03-2010, 10:48 AM
#54
Where's my Mai Tai?
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: fins to the left, fins to the right
Posts: 1,754
So the captain refused the plane. Would he refuse a plane with no A/P in good weather? What about another MEL?
My point to this mess is captains have to play the game. Most places a captain cannot cancel a flight only delay it.
A/P broken, okay fine.
Hello ops, I'm going to wait for the weather to get better.
Long day? either call fatigued or time out waiting for the weather to get better.
Captains can make any decision they want. Will they answer to it, maybe. Better reasons could have been made by the captain in this instance.
As far as say a 757, I know a captain declared an emergency due to dual FMS failure and diverted. A little carpet dance and focus training was the result.
My point to this mess is captains have to play the game. Most places a captain cannot cancel a flight only delay it.
A/P broken, okay fine.
Hello ops, I'm going to wait for the weather to get better.
Long day? either call fatigued or time out waiting for the weather to get better.
Captains can make any decision they want. Will they answer to it, maybe. Better reasons could have been made by the captain in this instance.
As far as say a 757, I know a captain declared an emergency due to dual FMS failure and diverted. A little carpet dance and focus training was the result.
02-03-2010, 10:50 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Beech 1900D
Posts: 280
How in the hell do I "stay current" on that kind of flying? Come in for some extra sim time on my days off? Nevermind, the company doesn't give out free sim time anyway. Our proficiency checks focus on managing the autopilot, not hand flying...we do one handflown ILS, with the FD, usually starting AFTER we are established on the LOC/GS.
In 6+ years and about 4000 hours of airline flying I have never had a deferred autopilot. At my company we are not allowed to handfly above FL200.
It's not about being manly here, it's about safety. For most RJ drivers the right answer is to not do a complex non-prec approach with multiple risk factors and no AP.
In 6+ years and about 4000 hours of airline flying I have never had a deferred autopilot. At my company we are not allowed to handfly above FL200.
It's not about being manly here, it's about safety. For most RJ drivers the right answer is to not do a complex non-prec approach with multiple risk factors and no AP.
02-03-2010, 10:55 AM
#56
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,108
I'm not talking about machoism, or coolness, or manliness. I could not care less about that stuff. I'm not talking about extra time in the sim. All I'm saying is, in preparation for the possibility that the autopilot will fail, or the possibility of it being deferred, being able to hand fly it without worrying about safety being affected does not seem too unreasonable, or crazy, to me. Being able to fly an approach is not too crazy and unreasonable, to me. It doesn't matter if you are trained to do it in the sim, or not. It's called having the ability to fly the airplane in the IFR environment. How is that unreasonable???
Could I do it in a pinch? Sure. But it might be prudent to take a pass if you have the option and there enough factors going against you.
It's just the reality of the flying we do, which is all different from the kind of flying you do.
02-03-2010, 11:06 AM
#57
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Window Seat
Posts: 1,430
Well since we're saying what we think...
He should have accepted the flight and taken off, hand flown (600 foot ceiling, give me a break, that's easy money), the aircraft was airworthy in every respect and the weather was dispatch-able.
Now, when they got there and attempted their approach and at that point decided that it was either unstable (due to them being not being proficient or the weather being that bad), unable to land due to any other circumstance they should have turned around and come right back, at that point making the PIC decision to do so... I will never question the reason someone turns around and nobody else ever should, however I will question someone who doesn't want to go flying in reasonable weather and in a good airplane when asked to do so. When you sit on the ground several hundred miles away and make the decision that you already know you can't do the flight safely you're sending the signal that you are either unsure of yourself (with or without reason), lazy or just not wanting to do your job, you get paid to fly not come up with invalid reasons not to fly.
He should have accepted the flight and taken off, hand flown (600 foot ceiling, give me a break, that's easy money), the aircraft was airworthy in every respect and the weather was dispatch-able.
Now, when they got there and attempted their approach and at that point decided that it was either unstable (due to them being not being proficient or the weather being that bad), unable to land due to any other circumstance they should have turned around and come right back, at that point making the PIC decision to do so... I will never question the reason someone turns around and nobody else ever should, however I will question someone who doesn't want to go flying in reasonable weather and in a good airplane when asked to do so. When you sit on the ground several hundred miles away and make the decision that you already know you can't do the flight safely you're sending the signal that you are either unsure of yourself (with or without reason), lazy or just not wanting to do your job, you get paid to fly not come up with invalid reasons not to fly.
02-03-2010, 11:08 AM
#58
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 444
I'm not talking about machoism, or coolness, or manliness. I could not care less about that stuff. I'm not talking about extra time in the sim. All I'm saying is, in preparation for the possibility that the autopilot will fail, or the possibility of it being deferred, being able to hand fly it without worrying about safety being affected does not seem too unreasonable, or crazy, to me. Being able to fly an approach is not too crazy and unreasonable, to me. It doesn't matter if you are trained to do it in the sim, or not. It's called having the ability to fly the airplane in the IFR environment. How is that unreasonable???
02-03-2010, 11:20 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: At JBLU
Posts: 337
I hand flew lear 20's at FL410 and even FL510 more than a few times. Every other leg, 5 legs a night, four days a week, for weeks on end in crappy weather. It is fatiguing.
I also shot most approaches to minimums, cross panel, raw data. I should be superpilot right? I was used to doing it so I felt pretty proficient. Could I do it tonight? Well............
Fast forward to now. In an RJ with pax. Thousands more hours under my belt. I admit it would give me a challenge.
Good for him standing on his principles
I also shot most approaches to minimums, cross panel, raw data. I should be superpilot right? I was used to doing it so I felt pretty proficient. Could I do it tonight? Well............
Fast forward to now. In an RJ with pax. Thousands more hours under my belt. I admit it would give me a challenge.
Good for him standing on his principles
02-03-2010, 11:33 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Beech 1900D
Posts: 280
We rarely do anything other than a straight-in precision or visual approach. Where do I get the opportunity to practice? MS Flight Sim? The company would be pretty bent if I started wasting time and gas to do full approaches for practice.
Could I do it in a pinch? Sure. But it might be prudent to take a pass if you have the option and there enough factors going against you.
It's just the reality of the flying we do, which is all different from the kind of flying you do.
Could I do it in a pinch? Sure. But it might be prudent to take a pass if you have the option and there enough factors going against you.
It's just the reality of the flying we do, which is all different from the kind of flying you do.
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