Pinnacle CA suspended
02-06-2010, 08:59 PM
#181
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 673
i agree about hand flying i love doing it and being comfortable, but the company should provide you the choice (esp on a 14 hour day last leg to mins) which is more of an issue since im sure they just want to save money....
02-07-2010, 09:39 AM
#182
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,814
I doubt anybody here thinks that the pilot-pushing in this case is okay...and I'm sure nobody is armchair quarterbacking on the side of management. What I do believe is that we've all flown with fellow pilots that are not comfortable hand-flying the aircraft VFR, much less down an ILS; this guy just fits that mold (I had a non-AP aircraft pawned off on me when another crew had refused it -- and I was thrilled). What I don't understand is how anyone can argue that an MEL'd autopilot equals an unsafe condition...that speaks volumes about a pilot's own respect for his skills, and face it -- if you don't respect your role as skilled labor, then why would anyone else?
02-07-2010, 11:28 AM
#183
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
I wonder what the founding fathers of ALPA would think if they knew that one day a member of their union would refuse to "fly" an aircraft because they had to "fly" the aircraft.....We can all talk about captains authority etc, but let's not forget that last time I checked we are paid to be pilots. Part of the job description is FLYING an aircraft. We all have things about our job we don't like, make it more work, and would prefer not to have to do. Then again we are getting paid to FLY and it's part of the job. I'm sure this will ruffle a few feathers, but maybe some need a little ruffling. Some need to man up a bit, quit whining and just get the job done. If flying in a little weather is that big of a problem, perhaps some are not in the right job....Rant off....
Lets not forget that back then you had a radio operator, navigator and an engineer so the two pilots could fly the plane.... Those other resources have long since been replaced by automation, and technology.... and in this case a major portion of that automation is broken.
Kudo's to the Captain.
02-07-2010, 05:06 PM
#184
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 85
t
Lets not forget that back then you had a radio operator, navigator and an engineer so the two pilots could fly the plane.... Those other resources have long since been replaced by automation, and technology.... and in this case a major portion of that automation is broken.
Kudo's to the Captain.
Kudo's to the Captain.
Last edited by xjcaptain; 02-07-2010 at 05:32 PM.
02-08-2010, 06:48 AM
#185
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: awkward
Posts: 239
Handflying an rj is a piece of cake. Maybe if more of the current commuter pilots spent time as freight dogs and actually had some experience before getting their airline job things like this wouldn't happen. Learn to fly BEFORE becoming an airline pilot. I guess we can blame the industry for allowing low time, inexperienced pilots in the cockpit. Reference the Colgan Captain and the poor FO stuck with him...she was just along for the ride.
I guess my hardest flight without an autopilot was in a simple little citation flying from msp to pae. Stupid northern lights were wild that night and kept tripping my brain. Couldn't look out the window without those dancing lights giving us both vertigo. Sure was a pretty sight though.
I have to give the Captain some kudos. With the erosion of Captain authority I'm glad this one had some stones. He didn't feel comfortable and made a decision. I can't believe how many pansies are out there that can't make a decision...even if its the wrong one. (not saying his was wrong, weather sucked, late night, long duty day, not comfortable with own ability = safe choice)
Full disclosure....Current plane I'm in doesn't let you fly without an autopilot if the automatic pressurization controller is inop. The non-flying pilot has to spend the whole flight keeping peoples ears from exploding.
I guess my hardest flight without an autopilot was in a simple little citation flying from msp to pae. Stupid northern lights were wild that night and kept tripping my brain. Couldn't look out the window without those dancing lights giving us both vertigo. Sure was a pretty sight though.
I have to give the Captain some kudos. With the erosion of Captain authority I'm glad this one had some stones. He didn't feel comfortable and made a decision. I can't believe how many pansies are out there that can't make a decision...even if its the wrong one. (not saying his was wrong, weather sucked, late night, long duty day, not comfortable with own ability = safe choice)
Full disclosure....Current plane I'm in doesn't let you fly without an autopilot if the automatic pressurization controller is inop. The non-flying pilot has to spend the whole flight keeping peoples ears from exploding.
All of the pilots at that company spent a year or two single-pilot in the props before they got in the Lear. When I flew with new co-pilots, it would take me about a minute or two to figure out who actually flew their Baron for a year, and who watched their autopilot fly.
I flew DC-9s many times with a deferred autopilot, once for an entire trip pairing. This was all still prior to RVSM.
But... If the enroute weather was low stuff that could be cleared by cruising at RVSM altitudes, then the deferred autopilot was essential. If that was the case, this guy should be able to get his lost pay back, and maybe even give the company a black eye.
02-09-2010, 10:09 AM
#186
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 73N
Posts: 862
I think instead of trying to decide with very limited information whether or not the CA is a wimp or a saftey master we should look at how this management at pinnacle is handeling the situation.
The normal procedure at Pinnacle when a pilot refuses an aircraft for any reason is to swap crews and hope they aren't able to talk to each other.
- I had a similar situation flying DTW-SBN with one engine gen inop and an APU that kept overheating and needing to be shut down in flight. The inbound flight was OMA-DTW and the crew had to divert TWICE after running the QRH and landing at the "nearest suitable airport". Then here we get to the plane and the logbook clearly says "ops check good". Nothing had been fixed therefore once again and we were "legal". What we didn't find out until the last minute is that the previous crew had refused to take this plane and we had been swapped into it at the last minute.
I was not comfortable taking this plane to SBN when the field was IFR and the threat of us being single gen in the soup when all they had to do was either fix the engine gen or fix the APU, but SBN is a mx base so they want us to "give it a shot". Unfortunately they young captain I was paired with did not think he was able to decline an airworthy aircraft (because he feared exactly what had happened in this case) and after long discussion we ended up going to SBN. The APU over temped halfway there and we ended up landing at the nearest suitable airport which to managements glee just happened to be SBN.
The point of all this is, this is how pinnacle operates. They have hundreds of crews flying each day and if they have a plane that other crews find "unsafe" they have plenty of other crews to swap into the segment and push someone into doing it. Thier company culture is to threaten us all with the idea that there is someone around the corner with a billy club ready to crack you if you step out of line. They are complete reactionary disciplinarians with not one bit of insight into projecting problems and creating solutions before the problems occur.
The thing you should all be worried about is not that there is a CA who is a wimp for not being a hand flying pro, but that there is at least one management group who is willing to sacrifice your ticket, your life and the lives of your pax to get thier fee for a departure.
The normal procedure at Pinnacle when a pilot refuses an aircraft for any reason is to swap crews and hope they aren't able to talk to each other.
- I had a similar situation flying DTW-SBN with one engine gen inop and an APU that kept overheating and needing to be shut down in flight. The inbound flight was OMA-DTW and the crew had to divert TWICE after running the QRH and landing at the "nearest suitable airport". Then here we get to the plane and the logbook clearly says "ops check good". Nothing had been fixed therefore once again and we were "legal". What we didn't find out until the last minute is that the previous crew had refused to take this plane and we had been swapped into it at the last minute.
I was not comfortable taking this plane to SBN when the field was IFR and the threat of us being single gen in the soup when all they had to do was either fix the engine gen or fix the APU, but SBN is a mx base so they want us to "give it a shot". Unfortunately they young captain I was paired with did not think he was able to decline an airworthy aircraft (because he feared exactly what had happened in this case) and after long discussion we ended up going to SBN. The APU over temped halfway there and we ended up landing at the nearest suitable airport which to managements glee just happened to be SBN.
The point of all this is, this is how pinnacle operates. They have hundreds of crews flying each day and if they have a plane that other crews find "unsafe" they have plenty of other crews to swap into the segment and push someone into doing it. Thier company culture is to threaten us all with the idea that there is someone around the corner with a billy club ready to crack you if you step out of line. They are complete reactionary disciplinarians with not one bit of insight into projecting problems and creating solutions before the problems occur.
The thing you should all be worried about is not that there is a CA who is a wimp for not being a hand flying pro, but that there is at least one management group who is willing to sacrifice your ticket, your life and the lives of your pax to get thier fee for a departure.
02-09-2010, 10:11 AM
#187
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Furloughed
Posts: 281
I think instead of trying to decide with very limited information whether or not the CA is a wimp or a saftey master we should look at how this management at pinnacle is handeling the situation.
The normal procedure at Pinnacle when a pilot refuses an aircraft for any reason is to swap crews and hope they aren't able to talk to each other.
- I had a similar situation flying DTW-SBN with one engine gen inop and an APU that kept overheating and needing to be shut down in flight. The inbound flight was OMA-DTW and the crew had to divert TWICE after running the QRH and landing at the "nearest suitable airport". Then here we get to the plane and the logbook clearly says "ops check good". Nothing had been fixed therefore once again and we were "legal". What we didn't find out until the last minute is that the previous crew had refused to take this plane and we had been swapped into it at the last minute.
I was not comfortable taking this plane to SBN when the field was IFR and the threat of us being single gen in the soup when all they had to do was either fix the engine gen or fix the APU, but SBN is a mx base so they want us to "give it a shot". Unfortunately they young captain I was paired with did not think he was able to decline an airworthy aircraft (because he feared exactly what had happened in this case) and after long discussion we ended up going to SBN. The APU over temped halfway there and we ended up landing at the nearest suitable airport which to managements glee just happened to be SBN.
The point of all this is, this is how pinnacle operates. They have hundreds of crews flying each day and if they have a plane that other crews find "unsafe" they have plenty of other crews to swap into the segment and push someone into doing it. Thier company culture is to threaten us all with the idea that there is someone around the corner with a billy club ready to crack you if you step out of line. They are complete reactionary disciplinarians with not one bit of insight into projecting problems and creating solutions before the problems occur.
The thing you should all be worried about is not that there is a CA who is a wimp for not being a hand flying pro, but that there is at least one management group who is willing to sacrifice your ticket, your life and the lives of your pax to get thier fee for a departure.
The normal procedure at Pinnacle when a pilot refuses an aircraft for any reason is to swap crews and hope they aren't able to talk to each other.
- I had a similar situation flying DTW-SBN with one engine gen inop and an APU that kept overheating and needing to be shut down in flight. The inbound flight was OMA-DTW and the crew had to divert TWICE after running the QRH and landing at the "nearest suitable airport". Then here we get to the plane and the logbook clearly says "ops check good". Nothing had been fixed therefore once again and we were "legal". What we didn't find out until the last minute is that the previous crew had refused to take this plane and we had been swapped into it at the last minute.
I was not comfortable taking this plane to SBN when the field was IFR and the threat of us being single gen in the soup when all they had to do was either fix the engine gen or fix the APU, but SBN is a mx base so they want us to "give it a shot". Unfortunately they young captain I was paired with did not think he was able to decline an airworthy aircraft (because he feared exactly what had happened in this case) and after long discussion we ended up going to SBN. The APU over temped halfway there and we ended up landing at the nearest suitable airport which to managements glee just happened to be SBN.
The point of all this is, this is how pinnacle operates. They have hundreds of crews flying each day and if they have a plane that other crews find "unsafe" they have plenty of other crews to swap into the segment and push someone into doing it. Thier company culture is to threaten us all with the idea that there is someone around the corner with a billy club ready to crack you if you step out of line. They are complete reactionary disciplinarians with not one bit of insight into projecting problems and creating solutions before the problems occur.
The thing you should all be worried about is not that there is a CA who is a wimp for not being a hand flying pro, but that there is at least one management group who is willing to sacrifice your ticket, your life and the lives of your pax to get thier fee for a departure.
02-09-2010, 11:51 AM
#188
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
I think instead of trying to decide with very limited information whether or not the CA is a wimp or a saftey master we should look at how this management at pinnacle is handeling the situation.
The normal procedure at Pinnacle when a pilot refuses an aircraft for any reason is to swap crews and hope they aren't able to talk to each other.
- I had a similar situation flying DTW-SBN with one engine gen inop and an APU that kept overheating and needing to be shut down in flight. The inbound flight was OMA-DTW and the crew had to divert TWICE after running the QRH and landing at the "nearest suitable airport". Then here we get to the plane and the logbook clearly says "ops check good". Nothing had been fixed therefore once again and we were "legal". What we didn't find out until the last minute is that the previous crew had refused to take this plane and we had been swapped into it at the last minute.
I was not comfortable taking this plane to SBN when the field was IFR and the threat of us being single gen in the soup when all they had to do was either fix the engine gen or fix the APU, but SBN is a mx base so they want us to "give it a shot". Unfortunately they young captain I was paired with did not think he was able to decline an airworthy aircraft (because he feared exactly what had happened in this case) and after long discussion we ended up going to SBN. The APU over temped halfway there and we ended up landing at the nearest suitable airport which to managements glee just happened to be SBN.
The point of all this is, this is how pinnacle operates. They have hundreds of crews flying each day and if they have a plane that other crews find "unsafe" they have plenty of other crews to swap into the segment and push someone into doing it. Thier company culture is to threaten us all with the idea that there is someone around the corner with a billy club ready to crack you if you step out of line. They are complete reactionary disciplinarians with not one bit of insight into projecting problems and creating solutions before the problems occur.
The thing you should all be worried about is not that there is a CA who is a wimp for not being a hand flying pro, but that there is at least one management group who is willing to sacrifice your ticket, your life and the lives of your pax to get thier fee for a departure.
The normal procedure at Pinnacle when a pilot refuses an aircraft for any reason is to swap crews and hope they aren't able to talk to each other.
- I had a similar situation flying DTW-SBN with one engine gen inop and an APU that kept overheating and needing to be shut down in flight. The inbound flight was OMA-DTW and the crew had to divert TWICE after running the QRH and landing at the "nearest suitable airport". Then here we get to the plane and the logbook clearly says "ops check good". Nothing had been fixed therefore once again and we were "legal". What we didn't find out until the last minute is that the previous crew had refused to take this plane and we had been swapped into it at the last minute.
I was not comfortable taking this plane to SBN when the field was IFR and the threat of us being single gen in the soup when all they had to do was either fix the engine gen or fix the APU, but SBN is a mx base so they want us to "give it a shot". Unfortunately they young captain I was paired with did not think he was able to decline an airworthy aircraft (because he feared exactly what had happened in this case) and after long discussion we ended up going to SBN. The APU over temped halfway there and we ended up landing at the nearest suitable airport which to managements glee just happened to be SBN.
The point of all this is, this is how pinnacle operates. They have hundreds of crews flying each day and if they have a plane that other crews find "unsafe" they have plenty of other crews to swap into the segment and push someone into doing it. Thier company culture is to threaten us all with the idea that there is someone around the corner with a billy club ready to crack you if you step out of line. They are complete reactionary disciplinarians with not one bit of insight into projecting problems and creating solutions before the problems occur.
The thing you should all be worried about is not that there is a CA who is a wimp for not being a hand flying pro, but that there is at least one management group who is willing to sacrifice your ticket, your life and the lives of your pax to get thier fee for a departure.
I had the exact same experience when I was there. That is what a lot of the hotshots on this thread are missing....
02-09-2010, 12:59 PM
#189
*********
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,068
Airplane is given to us to operate as a revenue flight to MX base. Destination is IFR, icing en-route. I expressed my feelings to the CA (I was against accepting the airplane). CA wanted to go home, vs. deny-ing the airplane and overnight out of base (last leg of 3 day trip).
We went, the light stayed off, and we lived to see another day. Most uncomfortable flight of my career.
It was legal, but in my opinion, wrong to operate that flight as revenue. I didn't want to go either way, but I wanted to go even less with 50 people in back.
02-09-2010, 01:12 PM
#190
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 148
I expressed my feelings to the CA (I was against accepting the airplane). CA wanted to go home, vs. deny-ing the airplane and overnight out of base .....
Most uncomfortable flight of my career......
It was legal, but in my opinion, wrong to operate that flight as revenue. I didn't want to go either way, but I wanted to go even less with 50 people in back.
Most uncomfortable flight of my career......
It was legal, but in my opinion, wrong to operate that flight as revenue. I didn't want to go either way, but I wanted to go even less with 50 people in back.
If something is not right...it is not right. It is the pilots' decision, not the pilot's decision to take the airplane.
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