Pinnacle CA suspended
02-04-2010, 06:47 PM
#131
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Window Seat
Posts: 1,430
I encourage everyone to perform their jobs to the best of their ability, my only "complaint"/"concern" is the fact that lack of an AP appears to be the only reason that this flight didn't go... I can think of several outfits that fly 727s and 737s that routinely go without APs or FDs into similar, or worse, weather because as pilots they don't come up with reasons not to go, but try, to the best of their ability, to get a job done. Did you stop to think that this isn't a concern about PIC authority and more about doing/not doing your job, one could easily call PIC authority in rejecting every single aircraft that has an MEL on it etc. etc., where does PIC authority end and where does doing/not doing your job begin?
02-04-2010, 07:07 PM
#132
Reserve for Life
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Right Seat for life
Posts: 221
I encourage everyone to perform their jobs to the best of their ability, my only "complaint"/"concern" is the fact that lack of an AP appears to be the only reason that this flight didn't go... I can think of several outfits that fly 727s and 737s that routinely go without APs or FDs into similar, or worse, weather because as pilots they don't come up with reasons not to go, but try, to the best of their ability, to get a job done. Did you stop to think that this isn't a concern about PIC authority and more about doing/not doing your job, one could easily call PIC authority in rejecting every single aircraft that has an MEL on it etc. etc., where does PIC authority end and where does doing/not doing your job begin?
Last edited by Jetrecruiter; 02-04-2010 at 07:21 PM.
02-04-2010, 07:18 PM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Left Seat, Toyota Tacoma
Posts: 593
I obviously don't know all of the facts, but based on the speculative info on this forum, I have to say that I support the Captain's decision. He's the one who is qualified (and required) to conduct a risk analysis of all pertinent factors, including WX, MX, and human factors. Period. Dot. End of discussion.
02-04-2010, 07:38 PM
#135
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
I don't think anyone on this thread is belittling automation, nor do I think this thread is an "I can hand-fly better than the autopilot" discussion either. As mentioned earlier, a decision was made based on stated criteria and the bulk of the conversations thus far have centered around the merits of that decision.
The camps seem to be split on whether or not one should accept an aircraft with an inoperative autopilot. As I mentioned earlier, that would depend not only on the individual, but also on the circumstance(s) as well.
If the aircraft is approved to be dispatched with an inoperative autopilot, then it can be operated legally. Is it dangerous to do so? All things being equal, this really should be a non-event for most people.
Now, if the weather is down, the crew has had a long day, and the flight will be operated into very congested airspace, then the PIC must make - and be prepared to defend - his or her decision if the PIC elects not to accept the aircraft. That decision may be based on factors such as fatigue, experience, and proficiency.
Legally, if the aircraft can be dispatched without the autopilot and the weather is such that it does not negatively affect operating within the bounds of that deferral, then the PIC is going to have a tough time defending his decision based solely on the autopilot being deferred. In other words, why is it a safety issue if one must hand fly? That answer depends on the individual and one answer will not suffice for each and every individual.
Some may refuse to accept the aircraft and some may not refuse to accept it. In either case, both may be correct.
The camps seem to be split on whether or not one should accept an aircraft with an inoperative autopilot. As I mentioned earlier, that would depend not only on the individual, but also on the circumstance(s) as well.
If the aircraft is approved to be dispatched with an inoperative autopilot, then it can be operated legally. Is it dangerous to do so? All things being equal, this really should be a non-event for most people.
Now, if the weather is down, the crew has had a long day, and the flight will be operated into very congested airspace, then the PIC must make - and be prepared to defend - his or her decision if the PIC elects not to accept the aircraft. That decision may be based on factors such as fatigue, experience, and proficiency.
Legally, if the aircraft can be dispatched without the autopilot and the weather is such that it does not negatively affect operating within the bounds of that deferral, then the PIC is going to have a tough time defending his decision based solely on the autopilot being deferred. In other words, why is it a safety issue if one must hand fly? That answer depends on the individual and one answer will not suffice for each and every individual.
Some may refuse to accept the aircraft and some may not refuse to accept it. In either case, both may be correct.
02-04-2010, 07:40 PM
#136
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: Capt King Air B200, Cessna Caravan 208
Posts: 56
We are PILOTS...not button pushers...I have flown many aircraft with and without autopilots in all types of weather. If you cannot depend on your hand flying skills...go home and be suspended! And for those of you that are lazy and argue against that...then I never want you to hear you complain about the pay rate of flying...because we should get paid to BE pilots.
02-04-2010, 08:03 PM
#137
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
We are PILOTS...not button pushers...I have flown many aircraft with and without autopilots in all types of weather. If you cannot depend on your hand flying skills...go home and be suspended! And for those of you that are lazy and argue against that...then I never want you to hear you complain about the pay rate of flying...because we should get paid to BE pilots.
We have another that totally missed the point....
02-04-2010, 08:07 PM
#138
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Livin' the dream
Posts: 626
ref Steve O Kenevo postIf I ever win the lottery and decide to start my own 135 outfit in AK I think I'm going to use the scenario this Pinnacle Captain dealt with as a "what would you do as PIC in this situation?" interview question.
Need to weed out the PILOTS (the non button pushers), from the pilots who would rather go home and be suspended for doing what they believed was right.
02-04-2010, 08:08 PM
#139
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: Seat 0B
Posts: 1,214
Kudos to you sir. Your trophy is on its way. I'm sure your parents are proud and you have no problem impressing the women but youre missing the point. The captain did not feel safe flying the airplane without autopilot. We all know somebody who hand flew an airplane halfway around the world in IMC with no FD or AP but Part 121 pilots are not paid to take chances. The guy didnt feel safe and thats fine. It's called JUDGEMENT.
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