Colgan Air Hiring FOs for Saab 340 and Q400
01-21-2010, 10:48 PM
#261
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 596
nobody's bringing up republic?
01-22-2010, 01:02 AM
#262
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
So besides less pay... what EXACTLY are the differences in work rules/ benefits versus other airlines?
Would you mind sharing a side by side comparison of a "preferred regional"? I hear ASA has good work rules?
I guess a better way to say it....
ASA vs. Colgan
per diem: $x.xx $x.xx
cancel: 50% %50
something like that??? probably a lot of work, but I am trying to to figure out how different it really is? THANKS for the info guys!
Would you mind sharing a side by side comparison of a "preferred regional"? I hear ASA has good work rules?
I guess a better way to say it....
ASA vs. Colgan
per diem: $x.xx $x.xx
cancel: 50% %50
something like that??? probably a lot of work, but I am trying to to figure out how different it really is? THANKS for the info guys!
I am not endorsing Colgan. But for a few people it could be good. If you live in Houston or Newark and could stay in base then working for Colgan could be better than moving to SEA and working for Horizon. If one lived in Cincinnati, Comair could be good. However, if one lived in Bismark and were facing a move wherever you go, Horizon is most likely the easy choice.
Traditionally, if one lived in Bar Harbor and wanted to be home every night, he/she could earn around 40+ as a CA flying a 1900. Outstations worked for a few folks. As Colgan has grown, oustation basing is ending, so Colgan may be less viable for the average pilot.
I neither endorse nor denounce Colgan. It is what it is. What each and every applicant needs to do, is weigh ALL the variables, assume he/she will be with the next company for several years, and make an informed choice.
Colgan doesn't need disgruntled new hires, it needs people who are willing to help fight for a quality contract.
01-22-2010, 03:54 AM
#263
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Furlough/Gun Driver
Posts: 437
this is like telling children who are homeless sweatshop workers in china (CFI's) not to try to get a foster home in America (regionals)... in my opinion..
Colgan would be a step up from where I have been for the past 2.5 years for 7 days a week. I think we've all agreed that Colgan is not THE BEST regional, but there are worse places, and a lot of us are at those worse places, or at no place at all (furloughed).
I really want to have the option to make the regional I go to, a career. If **** hits the fan and I get "stuck" at my regional, I wanna know that this is still a decent place to work, and not stuck in a "temp" position like somebody else said. This is why I'm not sure Colgan is somewhere I want to go. Then again, it would be a step up for now. I'm just sick of having that "temp" attitude, then end up there for longer than I wanted to because of certain circumstances.
Colgan would be a step up from where I have been for the past 2.5 years for 7 days a week. I think we've all agreed that Colgan is not THE BEST regional, but there are worse places, and a lot of us are at those worse places, or at no place at all (furloughed).
I really want to have the option to make the regional I go to, a career. If **** hits the fan and I get "stuck" at my regional, I wanna know that this is still a decent place to work, and not stuck in a "temp" position like somebody else said. This is why I'm not sure Colgan is somewhere I want to go. Then again, it would be a step up for now. I'm just sick of having that "temp" attitude, then end up there for longer than I wanted to because of certain circumstances.
from an airline career, find a better paying regular job that will let you fly on your own terms for recreation, or instruct part time for fun and beer money. Regionals will offer nothing more than a marginal career that doesn't compensate for the sacrifices required. As long as whipsawing exists you cannot plan on a regional career, the contracts keep changing.I spent seven years at one of the better regionals and management still did thier best to make it suck. Step back look at the big picture and evaluate your options, If you still want to be masochistic and pursue an airline career in the current environment all I can do is wish you good luck, which is what it really takes.
01-22-2010, 06:14 AM
#264
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
Posts: 1,602
If your still instructing consider cutting your losses. RUN AWAY from an airline career, find a better paying regular job that will let you fly on your own terms for recreation, or instruct part time for fun and beer money. Regionals will offer nothing more than a marginal career that doesn't compensate for the sacrifices required. As long as whipsawing exists you cannot plan on a regional career, the contracts keep changing.
I spent seven years at one of the better regionals and management still did thier best to make it suck. Step back look at the big picture and evaluate your options, If you still want to be masochistic and pursue an airline career in the current environment all I can do is wish you good luck, which is what it really takes.
from an airline career, find a better paying regular job that will let you fly on your own terms for recreation, or instruct part time for fun and beer money. Regionals will offer nothing more than a marginal career that doesn't compensate for the sacrifices required. As long as whipsawing exists you cannot plan on a regional career, the contracts keep changing.I spent seven years at one of the better regionals and management still did thier best to make it suck. Step back look at the big picture and evaluate your options, If you still want to be masochistic and pursue an airline career in the current environment all I can do is wish you good luck, which is what it really takes.
I now have one of those "regular" better paying jobs that places me in a ten by ten windowless office most of the time and subject to extreme micro-management and the baseless philosophy of my "superiors"--who truly believe that physical presence ensures productivity.
Given all the negatives, I gotta say I still just miss it. Crummy food, bad schedules, ugly commute, reserve; I was still out there doing my own thing and could say that even though I moaned about it, I did enjoy the job. Once the chocks were in, I no longer "owned" the problem like in many other occupations out there.
01-22-2010, 06:49 AM
#265
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 348
Trust me, Colgan is not better than instructing jobs. If your instructing job is that bad, you need to look for a better one. When I started instructing I thought it really sucked. When I finally said enough is enough and went to another, I realized how much I was getting abused. That's in the past, but for new instructors, I always say, don't go someplace that makes you work when your not with a student. I think that is actually illegal in a bunch of states. They are suppose to pay you minimum wage in some states when you are at the desk. I believe some instructors won a big lawsuit regarding this.
Instructors are making $30-$50/hour right now flying Cessna 152's. Don't tell me that's worse than Colgan. Know your worth and don't waiver on it.
No matter how much you hate your Colgan job, just listen to the honest Colgan pilots on this thread who are saying stay away. A common mistake pilots will make is they feel if they talk down on their company, they are talking down on themselves. That is why some Colgan pilots don't say the negative things about the place. The ones who do, are the ones you should really listen to.
Instructors are making $30-$50/hour right now flying Cessna 152's. Don't tell me that's worse than Colgan. Know your worth and don't waiver on it.
No matter how much you hate your Colgan job, just listen to the honest Colgan pilots on this thread who are saying stay away. A common mistake pilots will make is they feel if they talk down on their company, they are talking down on themselves. That is why some Colgan pilots don't say the negative things about the place. The ones who do, are the ones you should really listen to.
I live in Houston, so my choices of regionals were somewhat limited if I wanted to avoid commuting. It was Colgan, or ExpressJet. I barely had ExpressJet's minimums, I think it was not enough to be competitive, and I never heard from them. Had I held out for it like one of my friends did, I'd be furloughed right now.
Instead, I've upgraded. We've got more airplanes coming. I anticipate getting back to Houston in the next few months, I will have only had to commute for less than 6 months after upgrading.
I view my regional career as a way to qualify for a major job. All I need from it is experience, and enough money to get by. It is doing that for me.
The thing that people overlook when talking about Colgan is that you skip from the FO pay scale to the CA pay scale a lot quicker here. Sure, 4th year FO pay sucks, but few see it. In fact, up until recently, few saw 3rd year FO pay. Now, look at 4th year CA pay vs. 4th year FO pay at other places, and you have a more real comparison of what it means to be a 4th year Colgan pilot. It doesn't usually mean $28/hour. It's more likely $45/hour.
Our work rules are coming around, slowly but surely. I don't know if the contract is going to be in place any time soon or not, but when it does come, that will be a much welcomed "locking down" of what is right now a constantly changing work rule environment.
The things that aggravate me most happen very seldomly, like being extended. I've only been extended a few times, and I've been here for 3 years. Being called on your day off is not a good reason to complain. If you don't want to go to work, don't answer the phone. We have absolutely no obligation to the company on our days off.
I suppose what I'm saying is that if I were in an instructor's shoes right now, and I was faced with working for Colgan or staying as an instructor, the choice is clear. One is a career advancement that most likely involves a pay raise (unless you happen to have the magical $30-$50/hour instructor job, which I've never come across), the other is to stay right where you are, holding out for a "more respectable" regional where you can sit right seat for 7 years, prolonging the ordeal.
You're naive if you think that people aren't going to apply for these jobs. Trying to talk a few of them out of it via an internet forum is just putting wear-and-tear on your keyboard.
01-22-2010, 06:58 AM
#266
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Furlough/Gun Driver
Posts: 437
Dosbo, I too was at one of the better (best) regionals at the time. Course $39 intro flights and 7 flights a day from IAD to Lansing, MI with 4 people per leg didn't really work out too well.
I now have one of those "regular" better paying jobs that places me in a ten by ten windowless office most of the time and subject to extreme micro-management and the baseless philosophy of my "superiors"--who truly believe that physical presence ensures productivity.
Given all the negatives, I gotta say I still just miss it. Crummy food, bad schedules, ugly commute, reserve; I was still out there doing my own thing and could say that even though I moaned about it, I did enjoy the job. Once the chocks were in, I no longer "owned" the problem like in many other occupations out there.
I now have one of those "regular" better paying jobs that places me in a ten by ten windowless office most of the time and subject to extreme micro-management and the baseless philosophy of my "superiors"--who truly believe that physical presence ensures productivity.
Given all the negatives, I gotta say I still just miss it. Crummy food, bad schedules, ugly commute, reserve; I was still out there doing my own thing and could say that even though I moaned about it, I did enjoy the job. Once the chocks were in, I no longer "owned" the problem like in many other occupations out there.
That being said, I did not get into the 121 business to have a career at a regional. I expended 8 years and a significant loss of potential income (from my previous career) before being hired by a major. After all that, I am on the street flying 135 light twins and contemplating my future in civilian aviation. I did not make my sacrifices for a regional career lifestyle, I made them for a major airline pilot career lifestyle (which has also been decimated since 2001).
With the current situation it is far more likely that someone could spend the majority or all of thier career at regionals than actually get hired by a major airline. Those just getting into the business need to look at that reality and decide if the regional lifestyle is worth the expense and sacrifice. To me it is not.
Until the endless pool of pilots willing to work for peanuts ends this career will continue to circle the drain. Until those starry eyed future airline pilots understand what the true cost for an airline career is they won't understand why working for pennies just to build time is a large part of the current problem.
01-22-2010, 08:14 AM
#267
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Lear 55 CA
Posts: 244
has anybody interviewed yet?
01-22-2010, 08:38 AM
#268
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
The opinions of whiners. I think you should listen to both sides of it.That's true that one should listen to both sides of it. The only thing the applicant needs to realize, like someone else said prior in the thread, is that the opinions are very subjective (as all opinions are) and a newhire's experience will vary greatly depending on if you live in base, where you are based (obviously if you are based in IAD you will be [......] with a lot more than someone in BUF), etc. but I think the biggest subjective factor is how quickly they upgraded. Obviously the quicker someone had the opportunity to upgrade, the more likely they are satisfied with colgan and their situation because, well, they got what they were looking for by coming here (which is the quick upgrade.)
Thanks for calling me a whiner. I was answering the questions that were asked. Are any of the rules I wrote not true or valid? then please feel free to correct. To the best of my knowledge, those rules I wrote are the facts at the moment, and the opinions I wrote are a result of my experience. Just because my experience is difference from yours doesn't mean it's not true. I wouldn't try to diminish yours.
Instead, I've upgraded. We've got more airplanes coming. I anticipate getting back to Houston in the next few months, I will have only had to commute for less than 6 months after upgrading.
I view my regional career as a way to qualify for a major job. Who didn't? My question to you (the general you) is this, what if it takes you 10 years to get there? (economy, lack of retirements, your goal airline not hiring, or failing the interview and having to look elsewhere, or never even getting called for an interview, etc etc) or what if you never get there at all? You think all the '05 hires and up at Colgan (I say 05 because those guys are kind of the last group to have qualified for the last major hiring wave) are still here by choice, or because they just suck? Reality is NOT everyone who wants to go to fedex/southwest/delta is going to get hired and what if one of those people end up being you. would you rather be stuck at a regional that tops out at 100k+ with good QOL or 60k and below average QOL. Yes I am aware that we have guys here whose dads work at fedex and all they really did need was that quick 1000 PIC and they really are just biding their time and maybe this is you as well, but majority of dont have that kind of "guarantee".
The thing that people overlook when talking about Colgan is that you skip from the FO pay scale to the CA pay scale a lot quicker here. Sure, 4th year FO pay sucks, but few see it. In fact, up until recently, few saw 3rd year FO pay. Now, look at 4th year CA pay vs. 4th year FO pay at other places, and you have a more real comparison of what it means to be a 4th year Colgan pilot. It doesn't usually mean $28/hour. It's more likely $45/hour.That's exactly what I (and many others I bet) factored into when I was came here, and the reason for not jumping ship as well when the 1 yr contract was over - I figured I would upgrade in just a few more months and my pay would jump whereas if I moved to another regional I would start over at first year FO pay again. Trust me, I did all the calculations and economically it just didn't make sense. I agree with you few ever saw 3rd year FO pay. I've already stated that the vast majority of CAs here have upgraded in the 1-1.5 yr mark. That is NO LONGER THE CASE, I don't know how you can argue with that or bring that up, because it is no longer relevant. I don't know what your definition of "few" is but more than a "few" will see 4th year FO pay. All the guys spring-summer-fall-probably even winter 07 guys will be in their 4th year when they upgrade. god only knows after that - it should be shorter due to those Qs coming, but who really can predict. You compare 4th year FO pay at other regionals vs. 4th year saab CA pay here. Sure the hourly rate at colgan is higher (not by much - high 30s/hr vs. 45/hr). In reality due to work rules, the 4th year saab CA would BARELY make the same for the same amount of work as a 4th year ASA/wisconsin/xjet/etc FO. Even if the saab CA managed to make more for that year, the 3 previous years he worked for 20-25k is considerably less than the 25-50k the FOs at other regionals made for those same 3 years. So overall, either way, the FOs at other regionals netted more. This is strictly speaking of pay, which I brought up because you brought it up. For many, the benefit of upgrading quicker and meeting mins for the majors outweighs a few years of "getting by" like you said. BUT again, no one can predict or guarantee upgrade times. You could have a completely realistic expectation like I did, and end up like this. To go to a regional with decent pay is kind of like insurance - you still have decent pay even if your quick upgrade plan/hope didn't work out.
The things that aggravate me most happen very seldomly, like being extended. I've only been extended a few times, and I've been here for 3 years. Being called on your day off is not a good reason to complain. If you don't want to go to work, don't answer the phone. We have absolutely no obligation to the company on our days off.I don't know what you're talking about, I never hear pilots complaining about being junior manned this way because they are smart enough to know. I DO know for a fact that in IAD they have been extending/JMing people by not giving them the release for their last leg on their friday until they have called crew scheduling. Still think this isn't "a good reason to complain"?
You're naive if you think that people aren't going to apply for these jobs. Trying to talk a few of them out of it via an internet forum is just putting wear-and-tear on your keyboard. agree with you here. no matter what people are going to apply but for the few who are genuinely curious and are trying to make a decision it doesn't hurt to help them out by giving them the lowdown. that's obviously what the forum is for. besides I have nothing better to do on my west virginian layover.
Thanks for calling me a whiner. I was answering the questions that were asked. Are any of the rules I wrote not true or valid? then please feel free to correct. To the best of my knowledge, those rules I wrote are the facts at the moment, and the opinions I wrote are a result of my experience. Just because my experience is difference from yours doesn't mean it's not true. I wouldn't try to diminish yours.
Instead, I've upgraded. We've got more airplanes coming. I anticipate getting back to Houston in the next few months, I will have only had to commute for less than 6 months after upgrading.
I view my regional career as a way to qualify for a major job. Who didn't? My question to you (the general you) is this, what if it takes you 10 years to get there? (economy, lack of retirements, your goal airline not hiring, or failing the interview and having to look elsewhere, or never even getting called for an interview, etc etc) or what if you never get there at all? You think all the '05 hires and up at Colgan (I say 05 because those guys are kind of the last group to have qualified for the last major hiring wave) are still here by choice, or because they just suck? Reality is NOT everyone who wants to go to fedex/southwest/delta is going to get hired and what if one of those people end up being you. would you rather be stuck at a regional that tops out at 100k+ with good QOL or 60k and below average QOL. Yes I am aware that we have guys here whose dads work at fedex and all they really did need was that quick 1000 PIC and they really are just biding their time and maybe this is you as well, but majority of dont have that kind of "guarantee".
The thing that people overlook when talking about Colgan is that you skip from the FO pay scale to the CA pay scale a lot quicker here. Sure, 4th year FO pay sucks, but few see it. In fact, up until recently, few saw 3rd year FO pay. Now, look at 4th year CA pay vs. 4th year FO pay at other places, and you have a more real comparison of what it means to be a 4th year Colgan pilot. It doesn't usually mean $28/hour. It's more likely $45/hour.That's exactly what I (and many others I bet) factored into when I was came here, and the reason for not jumping ship as well when the 1 yr contract was over - I figured I would upgrade in just a few more months and my pay would jump whereas if I moved to another regional I would start over at first year FO pay again. Trust me, I did all the calculations and economically it just didn't make sense. I agree with you few ever saw 3rd year FO pay. I've already stated that the vast majority of CAs here have upgraded in the 1-1.5 yr mark. That is NO LONGER THE CASE, I don't know how you can argue with that or bring that up, because it is no longer relevant. I don't know what your definition of "few" is but more than a "few" will see 4th year FO pay. All the guys spring-summer-fall-probably even winter 07 guys will be in their 4th year when they upgrade. god only knows after that - it should be shorter due to those Qs coming, but who really can predict. You compare 4th year FO pay at other regionals vs. 4th year saab CA pay here. Sure the hourly rate at colgan is higher (not by much - high 30s/hr vs. 45/hr). In reality due to work rules, the 4th year saab CA would BARELY make the same for the same amount of work as a 4th year ASA/wisconsin/xjet/etc FO. Even if the saab CA managed to make more for that year, the 3 previous years he worked for 20-25k is considerably less than the 25-50k the FOs at other regionals made for those same 3 years. So overall, either way, the FOs at other regionals netted more. This is strictly speaking of pay, which I brought up because you brought it up. For many, the benefit of upgrading quicker and meeting mins for the majors outweighs a few years of "getting by" like you said. BUT again, no one can predict or guarantee upgrade times. You could have a completely realistic expectation like I did, and end up like this. To go to a regional with decent pay is kind of like insurance - you still have decent pay even if your quick upgrade plan/hope didn't work out.
The things that aggravate me most happen very seldomly, like being extended. I've only been extended a few times, and I've been here for 3 years. Being called on your day off is not a good reason to complain. If you don't want to go to work, don't answer the phone. We have absolutely no obligation to the company on our days off.I don't know what you're talking about, I never hear pilots complaining about being junior manned this way because they are smart enough to know. I DO know for a fact that in IAD they have been extending/JMing people by not giving them the release for their last leg on their friday until they have called crew scheduling. Still think this isn't "a good reason to complain"?
You're naive if you think that people aren't going to apply for these jobs. Trying to talk a few of them out of it via an internet forum is just putting wear-and-tear on your keyboard. agree with you here. no matter what people are going to apply but for the few who are genuinely curious and are trying to make a decision it doesn't hurt to help them out by giving them the lowdown. that's obviously what the forum is for. besides I have nothing better to do on my west virginian layover.
01-22-2010, 08:55 AM
#269
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 348
You have valid points, I was just trying to provide some positives. From reading the rest of this thread, you'd think that life at Colgan is only slightly better than a Chinese sweat shop. I just don't want anyone out there to get the wrong idea about our company, much like you don't. I've been pretty happy here. I know some who haven't been. I don't think that's any different anywhere else.
01-22-2010, 09:39 AM
#270
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Pt. 91 BE-350 SIC
Posts: 40
I wasn't going to post this, but just so I can laugh at the thought of winglets pulling out another gob of hair after reading it, I'll go ahead......I am interviewing there this weekend! Anyone else going? Let's try and get a few positive posts about the fact that some jobs are finally springing up before it goes back to the usual bashing and negativity.
