Will a Trip & Duty Rig or a Min Day.....
12-29-2009, 07:21 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
Thanks for the answers, again, some of this is just general curiosity and for clarification
So do we, but it's not too common. The usual low side is 18ish hours. But there are some 4 days where we're flying everyday for 15-16. If we have a calendar day layover, it pays 3 hours credit. Sometimes it simply brings a 3 day up to 20 hours, sometimes it can bring it up to 23-24 with total credit.
My company is efficient crew utilization wise for their purposes, but not from our point of view. By that I mean, it's more efficient to have us doing 12 hour days with sit times. It's opens up the length of the duty period to wedge in more flying . We're limited to a 13.5 hour day, but the norm is 12 to 12.5. If they cut the duty down for us to say 10 being the norm, they can't get 6-7 hours of flying in with our schedules. This comes into play with my point about the hotels........
What I was getting at was this with the hotels; If the day is more efficient for the pilot, say a 5.5 to 6 (average) hour day with only 8-9 nine hours of duty EVERY DAY, it may take 2.5 to 3 total crews on average to staff that airframes daily utilization. By making the duty day 12-13 hours with the 5.5 to 6 hours (on average) and 3-6 hours sit time, that airframe may only take 2-2.5 crews on average to staff. So you can have more crews in the hotels under the more pilot efficient way of doing it. Of course, that's all based on the overall average/spread of total utilization.
Yeah, you answered most, except for the clarification needed above, thanks. I'm XJT, we do have few, so VERY few of your high block examples above, but again, rare. With our furlough situation, we now run down to a 75 hr-ish line divisor. Which can totally suck for some guys. You can be top dog working day trips, or multi days, or a combination with 18 days off and 75ish hours of credit. OR, you can be at the bottom, with 12-13 days off, 300+ hours TAFB, with 75hr-ish credit. There are some higher time lines, but like I said, the furlough situation drives the low line divisor.
Sorry for the thread drift/tangent everybody. To bring it back full circle, we at the regionals need trip/duty rigs. Granted, at my company, it usually balances out that the credit will exceed 50% of the duty time, which most trip/duty rigs aim for. But I know I've had 12 hour/4 leg days with 5 hrs (or less) block. Would be nice to get 6 hrs credit for those days. But to bring it back full circle, it simply means that pilot labor costs go up, the company won't just magically start making more efficient schedules because of being hamstrung by the being at the mercy of the major dictating the schedule, having to balance out the flying, etc.
My company is efficient crew utilization wise for their purposes, but not from our point of view. By that I mean, it's more efficient to have us doing 12 hour days with sit times. It's opens up the length of the duty period to wedge in more flying . We're limited to a 13.5 hour day, but the norm is 12 to 12.5. If they cut the duty down for us to say 10 being the norm, they can't get 6-7 hours of flying in with our schedules. This comes into play with my point about the hotels........
The issue is having more crewmembers "at work" to accomplish the same block hours of flying. I'm not quite following your "more efficient= more hotels". If pilot's are efficient they hit their credit (whether it's block or simply credit) quicker and are released and off the dole for hotel and perdiem costs. The block hours for the airframes aren't what is the direct discussion, it's the amount of pilots required to do it, and the amount of days those pilots take to get it done.
I remember the reaction I got from your FO rep (I think you are with ASA) when I showed him one of my summer schedules where I had 10 leg 2-days worth 15 hours- with 15:20 block, 4 day trips worth 28 hours with over 28 hours of block. First reaction was "holy cow, how do you fly so much", followed by "hey, why do you fly more then you get paid for"? I have also had 4 day trips worth less than 15 hours- with lots of sits in DTW so it's not all rosy. Currently at 9E you will fly 75 hours to make 75 hours of pay unless you are on reserve (which can be flying far more than 75 hours or sitting ALOT of days on airport reserve) or a highspeeder that will still only get 10-12 days off depending on the month. For a lineholder to make 75 CURRENTLY, that pilot will typically be flying 75+ hours of block. If you are not in the top 1/3rd it's not especially rosy, ask anybody what happened to schedules in January- lots of folks are down to the 10 day off minimum that used to have 12-16 days off. I think that's where all this started on the company board.
I hope I answered your questions.
I hope I answered your questions.
Sorry for the thread drift/tangent everybody. To bring it back full circle, we at the regionals need trip/duty rigs. Granted, at my company, it usually balances out that the credit will exceed 50% of the duty time, which most trip/duty rigs aim for. But I know I've had 12 hour/4 leg days with 5 hrs (or less) block. Would be nice to get 6 hrs credit for those days. But to bring it back full circle, it simply means that pilot labor costs go up, the company won't just magically start making more efficient schedules because of being hamstrung by the being at the mercy of the major dictating the schedule, having to balance out the flying, etc.
12-29-2009, 11:09 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: FIRE ALPA
Posts: 3,097
Not sure what would be better... At Mesaba during the bankruptcy, the company tried to both get rid of the 4 hr min day and put in PBS. Ultimately the negotiators gave up PBS to keep the min day pay.... I wasn't around during the pre min day pay days but I can say for sure PBS is a HUGE steaming pile of crap for 90+% of the group....
12-30-2009, 12:00 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 170
The problem is if congress passes 10 hour min rest rules and reduced rest goes away, our MEM base is going to get screwed because we only have 3 banks. Unless half the trips are highspeeds they're going to have to start staging crews. Much less efficient trips. 28 hour overnights with zero pay.
12-30-2009, 01:00 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
You guys are talking a good amount about a "min day", but missing duty and trip rigs.
A min day could cause the company to extend your first and last day to make sure they're not giving away 'free $', but it has no real effect on productivity for pilots, nor does it really increase QOL.
A trip rig is a useless concept for regionals - the trips are too short for the rig to kick in.
A duty rig is what regionals need, and what incentivizes your company to build more productive schedules and reduce your sit time. It allows for stand-up overnights too. The time in the hotel might get longer, but if you're going to be away from base anyway, you might as well spend more time in the hotel and less time sitting in the airport each day.
APC did a great service to 'dumb down' rigs. Go here to check it out. Plug your schedule in and see what comes out. Remember, the goal of a rig is not to make $, but to incentivize the company to schedule you to fly while you're @ work. In an ideal world, the rig never kicks in.
A min day could cause the company to extend your first and last day to make sure they're not giving away 'free $', but it has no real effect on productivity for pilots, nor does it really increase QOL.
A trip rig is a useless concept for regionals - the trips are too short for the rig to kick in.
A duty rig is what regionals need, and what incentivizes your company to build more productive schedules and reduce your sit time. It allows for stand-up overnights too. The time in the hotel might get longer, but if you're going to be away from base anyway, you might as well spend more time in the hotel and less time sitting in the airport each day.
APC did a great service to 'dumb down' rigs. Go here to check it out. Plug your schedule in and see what comes out. Remember, the goal of a rig is not to make $, but to incentivize the company to schedule you to fly while you're @ work. In an ideal world, the rig never kicks in.
12-30-2009, 03:03 AM
#15
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,611
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
If I remember correctly, when AWAC got their big fat contract they had to give back shortly after 9/11, they negotiated trip/duty rigs, but they only applied to the middle days of multi day pairings, not the first/last day.
Originally Posted by AWAC 2001 CBA
C. Duty Pay/Trip Pay
When a pilot is assigned to duty by the Company, he will be paid the greater of the following:
1. One (1) hour of pay for every two (2) duty hours.
2. One (1) hour of pay for every three and one-half (3.5) trip hours.
3. Three (3) hours of pay for each calendar day or portion thereof a pilot is away from domicile (from the time commencing forty-five (45) minutes before scheduled domicile departure until fifteen (15) minutes after block-in at his domicile). This paragraph will not apply to a calendar day if the pilot was not scheduled to be on duty that day, but remained on duty because of unanticipated problems such as weather, mechanical, air traffic, and the pilot is released from duty no later than 0200 local time.
4. Actual flight time; or
5. Scheduled flight time.
When computing trip value, the above calculations will be used and will apply to all scheduled and unscheduled operations.
When a pilot is assigned to duty by the Company, he will be paid the greater of the following:
1. One (1) hour of pay for every two (2) duty hours.
2. One (1) hour of pay for every three and one-half (3.5) trip hours.
3. Three (3) hours of pay for each calendar day or portion thereof a pilot is away from domicile (from the time commencing forty-five (45) minutes before scheduled domicile departure until fifteen (15) minutes after block-in at his domicile). This paragraph will not apply to a calendar day if the pilot was not scheduled to be on duty that day, but remained on duty because of unanticipated problems such as weather, mechanical, air traffic, and the pilot is released from duty no later than 0200 local time.
4. Actual flight time; or
5. Scheduled flight time.
When computing trip value, the above calculations will be used and will apply to all scheduled and unscheduled operations.
Originally Posted by AWAC 2003 Concessionary CBA
2. Exceptions
a. Minimum Day Exception
Either (but not both) the first day or the last day of any
three- or four-day trip will be exempt from the minimum
daily pay provision, provided the pilot is originally
scheduled to check in at or after 1500L (if applied to
the first day) or is originally scheduled to report off on
or before 1200L (if applied to the last day). Instances
in which the minimum day will not apply will be
designated on the schedules.
Example: A pilot is scheduled to check in at 1830 on
the first day of a three- or four-day trip. He is
scheduled for 2.5 block hours. No minimum
day will apply on this day. The pilot will be
credited with the greater of scheduled, actual, duty rig pay (if any), or trip rig pay (if any).
Example: A pilot is scheduled to report off at 0930 on
the last day of a three- or four-day trip. He is
scheduled to fly 2 block hours. No minimum
day will apply on this day. The pilot will be
credited with the greater of scheduled,
actual, duty rig pay (if any), or trip rig pay.
Example: A pilot is scheduled to check in at 1830 on
the first day of a three- or four-day trip. He is
scheduled to fly for 2.5 block hours. On the
last day of the trip, the pilot is scheduled to
fly 2.5 block hours and is scheduled to
report off at 0930 at his domicile. The
Company may designate that the minimum
day does not apply on either the first or last
day of the trip, but not both. The “no
minimum day” provision will be designated
on the bid schedule and final bid award.
This exception to the minimum day rule applies only to
schedule construction, and will not be applied as a
result of rescheduling that occurs during daily
operations. For example, if a pilot was originally
scheduled to check in at 1000, but due to a
mechanical problem, his report time is delayed to
1515, the pilot will be credited with the greater of
scheduled, actual, minimum day, duty rig pay (if any),
or trip rig pay (if any).
b. CDO Exception
A CDO will not be subject to the minimum day (3.C.3.),
duty rig (3.C.1.), or trip rig (3.C.2.). Each CDO will
have a minimum value of five (5) hours. A pilot will be
credited with the greater of scheduled flight time,
actual, or five (5) hours for each CDO.
c. Non-Rigged Trip (NRT) Exception
After the regular lines are constructed in accordance
with Section 25.E., the Company may designate up to
five percent (5%) of the total time, by position, as trips
that are not subject to the duty and trip rigs. These
trips will be identified on the relief lines (if applicable),
and in open time as non-rigged trips.
Example: 1,000 block hours scheduled for ORD
CL-65. No more than 100 hours (10% of the
total block hours) may remain unassigned
after the regular lines are constructed. No
more than fifty (50) hours (5%) may be
constructed into trips designated as NRTs.
a. Minimum Day Exception
Either (but not both) the first day or the last day of any
three- or four-day trip will be exempt from the minimum
daily pay provision, provided the pilot is originally
scheduled to check in at or after 1500L (if applied to
the first day) or is originally scheduled to report off on
or before 1200L (if applied to the last day). Instances
in which the minimum day will not apply will be
designated on the schedules.
Example: A pilot is scheduled to check in at 1830 on
the first day of a three- or four-day trip. He is
scheduled for 2.5 block hours. No minimum
day will apply on this day. The pilot will be
credited with the greater of scheduled, actual, duty rig pay (if any), or trip rig pay (if any).
Example: A pilot is scheduled to report off at 0930 on
the last day of a three- or four-day trip. He is
scheduled to fly 2 block hours. No minimum
day will apply on this day. The pilot will be
credited with the greater of scheduled,
actual, duty rig pay (if any), or trip rig pay.
Example: A pilot is scheduled to check in at 1830 on
the first day of a three- or four-day trip. He is
scheduled to fly for 2.5 block hours. On the
last day of the trip, the pilot is scheduled to
fly 2.5 block hours and is scheduled to
report off at 0930 at his domicile. The
Company may designate that the minimum
day does not apply on either the first or last
day of the trip, but not both. The “no
minimum day” provision will be designated
on the bid schedule and final bid award.
This exception to the minimum day rule applies only to
schedule construction, and will not be applied as a
result of rescheduling that occurs during daily
operations. For example, if a pilot was originally
scheduled to check in at 1000, but due to a
mechanical problem, his report time is delayed to
1515, the pilot will be credited with the greater of
scheduled, actual, minimum day, duty rig pay (if any),
or trip rig pay (if any).
b. CDO Exception
A CDO will not be subject to the minimum day (3.C.3.),
duty rig (3.C.1.), or trip rig (3.C.2.). Each CDO will
have a minimum value of five (5) hours. A pilot will be
credited with the greater of scheduled flight time,
actual, or five (5) hours for each CDO.
c. Non-Rigged Trip (NRT) Exception
After the regular lines are constructed in accordance
with Section 25.E., the Company may designate up to
five percent (5%) of the total time, by position, as trips
that are not subject to the duty and trip rigs. These
trips will be identified on the relief lines (if applicable),
and in open time as non-rigged trips.
Example: 1,000 block hours scheduled for ORD
CL-65. No more than 100 hours (10% of the
total block hours) may remain unassigned
after the regular lines are constructed. No
more than fifty (50) hours (5%) may be
constructed into trips designated as NRTs.
12-30-2009, 03:07 AM
#16
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,611
Originally Posted by Sniper
A trip rig is a useless concept for regionals - the trips are too short for the rig to kick in.
If you have a trip with 80hr TAFB, a 3.5:1 trip rig will earn you 22:51 in pay; a 4:1 trip rig earns you 20 hours.
There were 4-day trips at AWAC back in 2007 that started early day 1 and finished late day 4 with 79-82hr TAFB and credited between 18-21hr pay.
In many cases the 4:1 trip rig would have provided some additional credits, but the 3.5:1 trip rig would have really made a big difference.
12-30-2009, 03:55 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Professional Expat
Posts: 326
As an AWAC pilot I see how Trip & Duty Rigs work on a regular basis and all I can say is that I'm extremely grateful we have them.
Firstly, they force the company to build more efficient trips because they can't have you sitting around for free.
And secondly, if you don't think they're worth having, have a look at some of your more screwed up trips (MX delays, CX'd flights, etc) and then apply the 2:1 Duty Rig or the 4:1 Trip Rig. Starts adding up very nicely.
Firstly, they force the company to build more efficient trips because they can't have you sitting around for free.
And secondly, if you don't think they're worth having, have a look at some of your more screwed up trips (MX delays, CX'd flights, etc) and then apply the 2:1 Duty Rig or the 4:1 Trip Rig. Starts adding up very nicely.
12-30-2009, 05:05 AM
#18
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,573
My company is efficient crew utilization wise for their purposes, but not from our point of view. By that I mean, it's more efficient to have us doing 12 hour days with sit times. It's opens up the length of the duty period to wedge in more flying . We're limited to a 13.5 hour day, but the norm is 12 to 12.5. If they cut the duty down for us to say 10 being the norm, they can't get 6-7 hours of flying in with our schedules. This comes into play with my point about the hotels........
What I was getting at was this with the hotels; If the day is more efficient for the pilot, say a 5.5 to 6 (average) hour day with only 8-9 nine hours of duty EVERY DAY, it may take 2.5 to 3 total crews on average to staff that airframes daily utilization. By making the duty day 12-13 hours with the 5.5 to 6 hours (on average) and 3-6 hours sit time, that airframe may only take 2-2.5 crews on average to staff. So you can have more crews in the hotels under the more pilot efficient way of doing it. Of course, that's all based on the overall average/spread of total utilization.
What I was getting at was this with the hotels; If the day is more efficient for the pilot, say a 5.5 to 6 (average) hour day with only 8-9 nine hours of duty EVERY DAY, it may take 2.5 to 3 total crews on average to staff that airframes daily utilization. By making the duty day 12-13 hours with the 5.5 to 6 hours (on average) and 3-6 hours sit time, that airframe may only take 2-2.5 crews on average to staff. So you can have more crews in the hotels under the more pilot efficient way of doing it. Of course, that's all based on the overall average/spread of total utilization.
12-30-2009, 05:45 AM
#19
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: CRJ - Hell Hole
Posts: 236
Someone commented earlier that this would change the majority of our trips to 4 day trips.
What's wrong with that? Three 4 day trips a month equates to working 12 days out of a month. Four 4 day trips equates to working 16 days out of month.
Not a bad deal.
All I got for january was 10 days off......(twice for clarification) 10 days off.....(3rd time for impact) 10 Days off!!! After 4 years of working here.
Is 12 days off too much to ask for? Is that greedy on my part to believe that 12 days off is fair?
****NOTE**** All crew schedulers and dispatchers at pinchanickle get 12 days off. They are home everynight, they work 4 10 hour shifts. So I ask again....is it too much to ask for that a pilot get the same? One 4 day trip a week?
What's wrong with that? Three 4 day trips a month equates to working 12 days out of a month. Four 4 day trips equates to working 16 days out of month.
Not a bad deal.
All I got for january was 10 days off......(twice for clarification) 10 days off.....(3rd time for impact) 10 Days off!!! After 4 years of working here.
Is 12 days off too much to ask for? Is that greedy on my part to believe that 12 days off is fair?
****NOTE**** All crew schedulers and dispatchers at pinchanickle get 12 days off. They are home everynight, they work 4 10 hour shifts. So I ask again....is it too much to ask for that a pilot get the same? One 4 day trip a week?
12-30-2009, 05:54 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: CL-65 captain
Posts: 2,244
Someone commented earlier that this would change the majority of our trips to 4 day trips.
What's wrong with that? Three 4 day trips a month equates to working 12 days out of a month. Four 4 day trips equates to working 16 days out of month.
Not a bad deal.
All I got for january was 10 days off......(twice for clarification) 10 days off.....(3rd time for impact) 10 Days off!!! After 4 years of working here.
Is 12 days off too much to ask for? Is that greedy on my part to believe that 12 days off is fair?
What's wrong with that? Three 4 day trips a month equates to working 12 days out of a month. Four 4 day trips equates to working 16 days out of month.
Not a bad deal.
All I got for january was 10 days off......(twice for clarification) 10 days off.....(3rd time for impact) 10 Days off!!! After 4 years of working here.
Is 12 days off too much to ask for? Is that greedy on my part to believe that 12 days off is fair?
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