AKfreighter

I was making a full thousand a week working as a carpenter before I took this job in the 207, and that was at the lowest wage. Much of the time I was making federal DB wages. Its amazing, and not at all right, how much people in heavy equipment and construction industries can make in relation to pilots. Sure is more fun flying though.

ChrisH

I have already said that I will not be anywhere near $100K in debt. I don't plan on being in any debt.

No FO is making $12K-$22K for 5 to 7 years. Any of the "decent" regionals and after first year you are making $30-$35K. Captains at the regionals I've talked to make anywhere from $60-$75K.

I just got a job with NWA as a CSA, and have been at training in Detroit. I have had a chance to talk with a lot of pilots over this past week, both regional, and major. I have asked them point blank if they think it is worth it, and each answered with a resounding "Yes!". And I asked them point blank if about it being worth it considering the pay-cuts, state of the industry, etc. In fact, many of them told me to stay away from these message boards. They say this is where the "complainers", more friendly word, come.

It is not even nearly as bad as some of you like to make it out to be, and most people are not making that kind of money coming out of college. The average salary in the U.S. today is $39K per year. I fail to see how the average starting salary out of college is $50K. Some degrees, maybe, but not most.

Also .. there are some degrees out there right now that start pretty high; such as accounting, and pharmacy degrees. But, they do not make much more than around the $80K range in the end.

And, by the way, why does it matter if someone else makes more than you, regardless of what they do? Are pilots supposed to make more than everybody else?

freezingflyboy

Right, I'm sure you have vast life experience to draw on to make these generalizations

When you think about pilot pay, think about this: There is no other profession where so many lives and such responsibility rests on the shoulders of so few. How many lives is a doctor responsible for on any given day? 5? 10? 20? I don't know. But lets say you fly 5 legs a day in your little 50 seater. I can gurantee you that there is no doctor out there who deals with 250 patients a day. When you loose that engine in your CRJ at V1 with a full boat coming out of Aspen, youll realize that you're worth a hell of a lot more than that $20/hr. In the aviation business you will have days where you are way OVER paid and then you will have days where you are way UNDER paid. Hopefully you have more days where you are over paid then under paid.

ChrisH

A doctor has a person's life in their hands in a much different way than a pilot does. I do not agree with that comparison. While pilot do have a person's life in their hands, so does a school bus driver. Should they make $100K? What about the teacher that teaches and mentors these future pilots, or doctors, should they make $100K? Everybody in every profession probably has more than one argument as to why they are important and deserve so much more.

I have looked at the pay scales of the airlines as posted on this very site. Other than first year FO pay, no pilot is making $12-$22K per year, for 5 to 7 years, unless they decide to stay as a FO at somewhere like Gulfstream, and that isn't happening.

I have seen some people leave college and get salaries in the $50K range, but the majority I know, and see, are getting salaries in the $30K, to $40K per year range. Most regional FO I've talked to, say they are making roughly in the $30K to $35K per year range, some even said $40K. Captains I've talked to range anywhere from $50K to $75K per year --> all varying, depending on the airline.

The above are not bad salaries, and the captain pay is not any less than what most people in this country are making. You are kidding yourself if you think that others are bringing home the bank.

It sucks that a lay off results in a pilot having to start over in their career, for the most part. But, unfortunately that is part of it, and will always be. But the problems of lay offs, pay cuts, benefits cuts, etc., are not just affecting pilots, they are affecting all airline employees, and all people in all industries. All over, people are being laid off, having pension cut, having other benefits cut, pay, etc.

While I do sometimes focus on the high points, I realize it is not all peaches in the airlines industry; but hey, it ain't all peaches anywhere.

So many of you like to bring up these other jobs that you know someone making more than you or some other pilots. At the same time, many of you preach getting a back-up degree/plan. If you think being a pilot is so bad, and so lousy in pay, then go do one of those other jobs, or use your back-up plan.

I guarantee if you walk into any busy mall and question every person in there, you'll find 90% or more don't make any more, or much more than you, especially if you are a captain, whether at the major, or regional level. I think some of you exaggerate, to a pretty great degree, this supposed 'lack of pay' for pilots, and this idea that everybody else if making so much money and living the good life. That couldn't be much further from the truth.

freezingflyboy

Allright ChrisH, why don't you get your calculator out.
You are a newhire FO at Company A. Life is great, you are having a blast flying your shiny RJ and making $22/hr an hour. You don't care about the pay, you are single and love Ramen. Plus you get to tell girls at the bar that you are an airline pilot. Lets take a look at your pay progression. I am assuming average industry pay for 50 seaters (I averaged CHQ, AWAC, TSA, ASA, XJT, and MESA) and average upgrade times.
Year 1 - $22,000/yr
Year 2 - $31,000/yr
Year 3 - $33,000/yr
You are about to upgrade to captain, you got married a year ago and now your wife is expecting your first child but then the economy goes in the sh!tter and you are furloughed. You weren't with the company long enough to be fully vested in your 401k so you can kiss those company contributions goodbye. Now youre also out on your ear for a year looking for a new job (during which time you no longer have any health benefits). Hope the wife has a good job. After a year of pounding the pavement, luck smiles on you and you get picked up at another regional (remember, the majors won't touch you because you still don't have any 121 turbine PIC time and there were a ton of other guys more qualified than you that got furloughed too). Now youre at Company B.
Year 1 - $20,000/yr
Year 2 - $28,000/yr
Year 3 - $31,000/yr
Year 4 - $60,000/yr (after your upgrade)
Again, you are about to upgrade at year 3 with Company B. You have now been in the industry for 7 years before you upgrade (albeit one of those years you were furloughed earning $0/yr from the airline industry). But lets look at that average airline pay over that period. I come up with $23,571 AVERAGE over that 7 year period. Now do you get it? What you PLAN and what actually happens to you in this industry seldom bear any resemblance. It's always nice to expect the best but you should always be prepared for the worst. Optimism is great but just be sure to put some sunscreen on that cornhole or you might get burned from all the sunshine.

flynavyj

has anyone ever met a person in a different job industry where a company went under. The guy was making good money in that company, and soon finds himself out of work. Has years in the industry, but, unfortuantely, is only moderately marketable, because while he does have some experience he isn't part of the companies that he is applying with, and they could hire and teach a new college kid the same job this guy is going to do for only part of the $$....happens all the time.

What's even more common is when an individual is laid off and is unwilling to take a pay cut, end reuslt, he'll be replaced by someone who will be willing to work for less money, happens in every industry also.

Of my friends who've graduated college recently, most are starting in the 40k range, normally between 30-40k, do know one girl who got a job making 50k out of college. She's working in the IT industry doing some computer programming BS, and even though she in the industry she thought she wanted, she hates her job...why? She works between 50-60 hrs a week, and there's no benefit of extra pay, you get what you get for 40 hrs a week, and if the job isn't done, they replace u w/ another recent college grad. hard knock life.

oh, and how many hours are pilots guarenteed a month? 75-80 on reserve? 22k a year, heck, that girl would be working that in a week and a half.

Billy32

You do realize that those are only flight hours. Multiply by 2-3 for work hours (unpaid) and then add all the down time away from home in some hotel to get a more realistic representation of how many hours we put in.

shackone

Are you saying that you spend '2-3' hours in 'work' for every flight hour? BTW...those are block hours, not flight time.

ChrisH

I see where you are coming from, and again, I understand things are not all peachey in the airline industry. But as flynavyj pointed out, things aren't all peachey in other industries either. I don't know many people making much over $30K to $40K out of college, and many of these people work 50 to 60 hour per weeks, not getting paid for any of that "over-time", since for the most part, people are salaried and not paid by the hour. I also know numerous people who have been laid off or had to take cuts in benefits, including pay. I once mentioned the problems the airlines are having to a co-worker, who is retired from an Exxon-Mobile plant. He said that is going on even at the Exxon plant, where he retired from, meanwhile the gas and oil companies are making record profits.

While I do realize the risk of furlough, I also realize I could spend an entire career and not get furloughed; it does happen. I don't want to not become a pilot, and many years from now look back and regret it, wondering what could have been. Could I be a Captain at FedEx right now? But, if I give it a shot, and hate it, or it doesn't work out, at least I am getting a back-up degree, and can choose to get out. It is easier to get out, than try to get in at a later age.

I think right now we have something to look forward to. United, American, SouthWest, and Continental all have made 2Q profits. The first for United in 6 years, just 5 months after getting out of bankruptcy. Prior to 9/11, I never saw complaints like I see now. It is frustrating, but things are beginning to look up. Some majors are beginning recalls, and others are announcing plans to begin them. Sometimes it helps to look at the positive signs, and not just focus on all of the negative.

Billy32

Are you saying you only work 75-80 hours a month? And yes block hours, hours in the cockpit is what I shoud have said instead of "flight hour" for the nitpicky among us. Look at the post I was responding to.