Even more qualified pilots on the street...
11-10-2009, 01:29 PM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: On The Jumpseat
Posts: 248
Actually he's right. It was sign on the line for a flight training loan, head to ALL ATP's or whatever quickie joint you find and 90 days later you'd be interviewing for a regional job (obviously it won't be that easy again for a while).
The pain and commitment ("investment") all come later when it's too late....
The pain and commitment ("investment") all come later when it's too late....
11-10-2009, 09:00 PM
#113
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
To expand
It does not take that much of an investment in time or education to become a commercial pilot.
In addition I am on the west coast. If the time stamp was for 2:am it must have been in regards to east coast time.
Funny though....
Skyhigh
In addition I am on the west coast. If the time stamp was for 2:am it must have been in regards to east coast time.
Funny though....Skyhigh
11-10-2009, 09:33 PM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Standing in front of the tank with a shopping bag
Posts: 926
A few more furloughed pilots for your list...
Hey NoHandHold,
I know what you are getting at, but you left out a few companies that collapsed last year that have a significant number of pilots on the street or ones that were hired and furloughed again by their new company. I think that you should take these numbers into account when calculating your total furloughed number. This includes: Skybus, FocusAir, Cargo360, Silverjet, Maxjet, Kitty Hawk Air Cargo, Gemini Air Cargo, Anheuser-Busch Flight Department, GM Flight Department, etc.
Also, Flexjet, FlightOptions, Citation Shares, PlaneSense, Dayjet, etc. have a large number of pilots on furlough. I would expect that this mini-Depression (OK, "Great Recession") has the number of total unemployed or underemployed (I.E., CFI's with only 1 student) to be pushing the 10,000 mark. Just the number from the incomplete list above should push it to 9K. Heck, there are probably still some Braniff, Eastern, Pan AM, Emery, Tower Air, Kiwi, Legend, Reliant, West Air, etc. pilots on the street, having been through multiple bankruptcies.
My point is that there are more qualified people on the street than we realize. On the other hand, I disagree with the pilots here that expect the rate of student starts to increase with increased demand. There are not THAT many trust fund babies out there that will be willing to put up with the new reality of this career. Just look at the press regarding pilots lately, Sully not withstanding. Pilots overworked, underpaid, and living in their cars in the LAX parking lot. Just today, when a girl asked a friend of mine what he did.. He said "I am a pilot..." And she said, disapprovingly, "Oh..." That did not happen until recently.. Not only has the public's respect for our profession fallen this decade, I think that our own confidence and self-respect has waned also. We have taken hits from all sides, and continue to do so.
Next, the unlikely positive is that this economy may start working in our collective favor. I know that sounds crazy, but consider this: The word is out on the street; Pilots DO NOT make a lot of money anymore and the job is no longer glamorous. The Congressional Hearings on the Colgan FO's $16000.00/YR. salary helped bring this into the light. Kit Darby is no longer making millions telling pilot wannabes how great a career this is and that "your dream job is out there". He was selling that same line in the black days of the early nineties when thousands of pilots were getting furloughed, but people were paying $195 a pop to attend pilot job fairs where nobody was hiring. I used to tell my peeps that if I ever won the Powerball (you know, the BIG Powerball), that I would stand out in front of Kit Darby's AirInc Job Fairs (with my posse, of course..) and hand pilots $195 cash NOT to attend. Of course, I would provide them with the same contact and hiring information to them FREE OF CHARGE, like it should be. Anyway, he's not out there blowing sunshine to CNN like he used to. And let's not forget going to the bank for a loan. Sure, we will always have the kids whose family paid for everything and are CRJ Captains at 24... But that's not the average. It used to be that getting a student loan or JTPA grant was as simple as going to the bank and saying "Please loan me this money so I can become a commercial pilot and make $300,000/Yr.". The word is out... Pilots don't make that kind of money anymore and English Literature Majors are likely to make more money. The banks won't loan money to people who want something of value that can be repossesed (houses and cars): What makes you guys think that banks will make these loans to pilots like they used to? Unlike Doctors wanting a loan to start their practice, with us there is no way to guarantee that we will succeed or stay successful.
Finally, the "pilot shortage" that I have been hearing about for 20 years may never really happen, but the source of pilots is definitely drying up... Kit Darby is gone, the Military has cut back and increased length of duty requirements, Mesa has stopped it's ab initio program, Gulfstream has slowed down with furloughs and bad press,aviation training, rental and fuel prices have jumped, and student loans have come to a standstill.
While I am not an optimist regarding this industry, I think that the above challenges will make it increasingly difficult for those who haven't already invested too much to quit, to get their fix of "shiny jet syndrome". Much like the aspiring actress that goes to Hollywood to find silver screen stardom, only to find herself in the adult film industry is where we find ourselves in this industry today. We collectively love what we do more than any group of people I know, even musicians... We just love the music too much, and the aviation industry meatgrinder knows this. But maybe, the lack of loans, student starts, bad press, etc. might slow the flow enough to make those pilots who hang on careers better. I'm not counting on it, though.
Best of luck to you all in this crazy biz....
In Unity,
B727DRVR
I know what you are getting at, but you left out a few companies that collapsed last year that have a significant number of pilots on the street or ones that were hired and furloughed again by their new company. I think that you should take these numbers into account when calculating your total furloughed number. This includes: Skybus, FocusAir, Cargo360, Silverjet, Maxjet, Kitty Hawk Air Cargo, Gemini Air Cargo, Anheuser-Busch Flight Department, GM Flight Department, etc.
Also, Flexjet, FlightOptions, Citation Shares, PlaneSense, Dayjet, etc. have a large number of pilots on furlough. I would expect that this mini-Depression (OK, "Great Recession") has the number of total unemployed or underemployed (I.E., CFI's with only 1 student) to be pushing the 10,000 mark. Just the number from the incomplete list above should push it to 9K. Heck, there are probably still some Braniff, Eastern, Pan AM, Emery, Tower Air, Kiwi, Legend, Reliant, West Air, etc. pilots on the street, having been through multiple bankruptcies.
My point is that there are more qualified people on the street than we realize. On the other hand, I disagree with the pilots here that expect the rate of student starts to increase with increased demand. There are not THAT many trust fund babies out there that will be willing to put up with the new reality of this career. Just look at the press regarding pilots lately, Sully not withstanding. Pilots overworked, underpaid, and living in their cars in the LAX parking lot. Just today, when a girl asked a friend of mine what he did.. He said "I am a pilot..." And she said, disapprovingly, "Oh..." That did not happen until recently.. Not only has the public's respect for our profession fallen this decade, I think that our own confidence and self-respect has waned also. We have taken hits from all sides, and continue to do so.
Next, the unlikely positive is that this economy may start working in our collective favor. I know that sounds crazy, but consider this: The word is out on the street; Pilots DO NOT make a lot of money anymore and the job is no longer glamorous. The Congressional Hearings on the Colgan FO's $16000.00/YR. salary helped bring this into the light. Kit Darby is no longer making millions telling pilot wannabes how great a career this is and that "your dream job is out there". He was selling that same line in the black days of the early nineties when thousands of pilots were getting furloughed, but people were paying $195 a pop to attend pilot job fairs where nobody was hiring. I used to tell my peeps that if I ever won the Powerball (you know, the BIG Powerball), that I would stand out in front of Kit Darby's AirInc Job Fairs (with my posse, of course..) and hand pilots $195 cash NOT to attend. Of course, I would provide them with the same contact and hiring information to them FREE OF CHARGE, like it should be. Anyway, he's not out there blowing sunshine to CNN like he used to. And let's not forget going to the bank for a loan. Sure, we will always have the kids whose family paid for everything and are CRJ Captains at 24... But that's not the average. It used to be that getting a student loan or JTPA grant was as simple as going to the bank and saying "Please loan me this money so I can become a commercial pilot and make $300,000/Yr.". The word is out... Pilots don't make that kind of money anymore and English Literature Majors are likely to make more money. The banks won't loan money to people who want something of value that can be repossesed (houses and cars): What makes you guys think that banks will make these loans to pilots like they used to? Unlike Doctors wanting a loan to start their practice, with us there is no way to guarantee that we will succeed or stay successful.
Finally, the "pilot shortage" that I have been hearing about for 20 years may never really happen, but the source of pilots is definitely drying up... Kit Darby is gone, the Military has cut back and increased length of duty requirements, Mesa has stopped it's ab initio program, Gulfstream has slowed down with furloughs and bad press,aviation training, rental and fuel prices have jumped, and student loans have come to a standstill.
While I am not an optimist regarding this industry, I think that the above challenges will make it increasingly difficult for those who haven't already invested too much to quit, to get their fix of "shiny jet syndrome". Much like the aspiring actress that goes to Hollywood to find silver screen stardom, only to find herself in the adult film industry is where we find ourselves in this industry today. We collectively love what we do more than any group of people I know, even musicians... We just love the music too much, and the aviation industry meatgrinder knows this. But maybe, the lack of loans, student starts, bad press, etc. might slow the flow enough to make those pilots who hang on careers better. I'm not counting on it, though.
Best of luck to you all in this crazy biz....
In Unity,
B727DRVR
Last edited by B727DRVR; 11-10-2009 at 10:01 PM.
11-11-2009, 07:10 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 747 FO
Posts: 937
For once, I actually agree with SkyHigh. Why are you expressing such surprise? Indeed, it does not take much of a time or education investment to become a commercial pilot. Also, it only takes average aptitude, ability and intelligence.....no particular exceptional attributes are required. If you think otherwise, you're only fooling yourself.
11-11-2009, 07:52 PM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: none ya...
Posts: 1,154
For once, I actually agree with SkyHigh. Why are you expressing such surprise? Indeed, it does not take much of a time or education investment to become a commercial pilot. Also, it only takes average aptitude, ability and intelligence.....no particular exceptional attributes are required. If you think otherwise, you're only fooling yourself.
Sorry dont see it that way!
11-11-2009, 10:00 PM
#118
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Fools
Pilots get kicked to the curb and keep coming back for more. "Fools" might be the most accurate term.
Skyhigh
11-12-2009, 05:00 AM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 747 FO
Posts: 937
that even resembles that. You're not even close. Try again.
11-12-2009, 05:45 AM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: none ya...
Posts: 1,154
You know, I'm not really sure if its the lack of egos, or the fact that everything is performance based, rather than seniority based, but since I have made the move to the corporate/charter side of aviation, I have noticed a big change in the pride that the pilots take in their jobs and in themselves. I'm not saying things are perfect, but people seem more interested in the job they do. I witnessed a Captain helping an elderly couple unload their bags from their trunk at an FBO with a smile on his face, I dare say, by the pride he takes in his job he does not see himself this way: (referance quote below)
sorry to have wasted you time...
Last edited by TPROP4ever; 11-12-2009 at 06:00 AM.
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