SKW guys/gals - a question
11-01-2009, 02:09 PM
#71
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 114
I was also fired from SkW. I'm confident that any union worth that title could have mitigated that in some way. However, the reality is that any pilot union, just like the current SAPA, would most likely be run by captains, who by a straw poll, support my firing (for failing upgrade training). Union or not, there wouldn't be a change here, either. FO's seem to see the policy differently, for obvious self-serving reasons ;-)
SkW is actively firing folks for failing recurrent training. Again, a good union should be able to argue training / downgrade / anything EXCEPT to be fired / PRIA / jobless. And a union with a little money can force the issue in arbitration / court.
SkW had fired another guy in the past two years, local to me in San Diego, during probation. Apparently another carrier's gate agent turned him in for getting into some kind of argument over the jumpseat. No union is going to save this guy either.
SkW fired another guy concurrent to my firing in August 2008 for failing FO IOE on the EMB-120 (also on probation). Seriously, what would any union be able to do there? The answer is nothing. Maybe offer the guy a counter job, or bag handling?
And this gets to a point I made earlier. Whether union or not, there won't be a significant change in firings. There should be, but I doubt there will be. Even the firings that should be won by a union might not be.
A union will offer lots of bravado, and at least a greater possibility that some jobs could be saved, or policies changed that make it easier to fire somebody.
A union will offer lots of bravado, and at least a greater possibility that some jobs could be saved, or policies changed that make it easier to fire somebody.
It has occurred to me that if ALPA were genuinely concerned about a union at SkW (beyond "we get their dues"), they'd finance the start-up of an in-house union... with no strings attached.
11-01-2009, 03:22 PM
#72
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
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Posts: 1,899
Don D. was fired, but used recourse available to any human in the good ole US of A.... a lawyer. I'm confident that any settlement with Don by SkW would have paid (or will pay) for his legal expenses. Granted, a union may, or may not, have provided Don with a lawyer (if he p*ssed off the wrong union folks, they'd let him sink).
I was also fired from SkW. I'm confident that any union worth that title could have mitigated that in some way. However, the reality is that any pilot union, just like the current SAPA, would most likely be run by captains, who by a straw poll, support my firing (for failing upgrade training). Union or not, there wouldn't be a change here, either. FO's seem to see the policy differently, for obvious self-serving reasons ;-)
SkW is actively firing folks for failing recurrent training. Again, a good union should be able to argue training / downgrade / anything EXCEPT to be fired / PRIA / jobless. And a union with a little money can force the issue in arbitration / court.
SkW had fired another guy in the past two years, local to me in San Diego, during probation. Apparently another carrier's gate agent turned him in for getting into some kind of argument over the jumpseat. No union is going to save this guy either.
SkW fired another guy concurrent to my firing in August 2008 for failing FO IOE on the EMB-120 (also on probation). Seriously, what would any union be able to do there? The answer is nothing. Maybe offer the guy a counter job, or bag handling?
And this gets to a point I made earlier. Whether union or not, there won't be a significant change in firings. There should be, but I doubt there will be. Even the firings that should be won by a union might not be.
A union will offer lots of bravado, and at least a greater possibility that some jobs could be saved, or policies changed that make it easier to fire somebody.
It has occurred to me that if ALPA were genuinely concerned about a union at SkW (beyond "we get their dues"), they'd finance the start-up of an in-house union... with no strings attached.
I was also fired from SkW. I'm confident that any union worth that title could have mitigated that in some way. However, the reality is that any pilot union, just like the current SAPA, would most likely be run by captains, who by a straw poll, support my firing (for failing upgrade training). Union or not, there wouldn't be a change here, either. FO's seem to see the policy differently, for obvious self-serving reasons ;-)
SkW is actively firing folks for failing recurrent training. Again, a good union should be able to argue training / downgrade / anything EXCEPT to be fired / PRIA / jobless. And a union with a little money can force the issue in arbitration / court.
SkW had fired another guy in the past two years, local to me in San Diego, during probation. Apparently another carrier's gate agent turned him in for getting into some kind of argument over the jumpseat. No union is going to save this guy either.
SkW fired another guy concurrent to my firing in August 2008 for failing FO IOE on the EMB-120 (also on probation). Seriously, what would any union be able to do there? The answer is nothing. Maybe offer the guy a counter job, or bag handling?
And this gets to a point I made earlier. Whether union or not, there won't be a significant change in firings. There should be, but I doubt there will be. Even the firings that should be won by a union might not be.
A union will offer lots of bravado, and at least a greater possibility that some jobs could be saved, or policies changed that make it easier to fire somebody.
It has occurred to me that if ALPA were genuinely concerned about a union at SkW (beyond "we get their dues"), they'd finance the start-up of an in-house union... with no strings attached.
WOW! All I can say, you sadly don't appreciate the power of a union. About the only way to get fired at my employer: Steal or lie, or repeatedly fail to show up to work or report to work drunk. (If drunk, don't show on company property and call the HIMS folks and you will keep your job). Also, the contract applies to newhires on probation. A company is not allowed to treat them differently unless annotated in the contract and ratified by the union members. i.e. scheduling rules, pay, etc all in the contract. Sure they can fire a probationary pilot, but really only for the same reasons they could fire any union pilot.
We have in our contract provisions for folks who cannot pass an upgrade. You would not have lost your job. Our contract would exhaust more training, more OE, finally if still unable to muster through, Return to your previous F/O seat. Wait for the contractual time and repeat. Fail that? Repeat, back to F/O. Timelines grow with the number of failed attempts. Also, a union really doesn't have alot of choice about whether or not they will defend you. It's the contract the union defends! The person is simply a beneficiary as defending the contract protects EVERYONE!. So popularity polls don't play in contract grievance defense.
Finally, management will continue firing people, the reality? That is to keep others in line, good old frustration and intimidation, but a union most often (unless for reason mentioned above)gets the job back and it may just be a vacation, often a paid one at that (but the stress level is a drag until job is back).
BTW, the JS issue probie firing you mention, we have in the past salvaged folks from themselves through professional standards at the union. Often, company may toss them to the union for some discussion.
Your comment on ALPA is dead on, but that my friend IS politics.
11-01-2009, 03:48 PM
#73
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Self employed
Posts: 3,048
They could have given the guy more IOE. How long did SKYW give him? I've seen guys get 50-100 hours of OE before.
He got 48 hours, IIRC. Since the target is 25-50, he was done. He had an additional circumstance was that he's dad died in the middle of sim, and he took three weeks off. Yes, absolutely he could have been extended, but the reality was that they needed to cut pilots. The pilot who got canned with the jumpseat issue was actually told by the MKE chief pilot that he would not get fired if they weren't overstaffed. I did not receive an opportunity to get a second shot at the type sim ride.
I have to disagree with you.... don't think we can expect ALPA to give the dues of other members to a non-union pilot group so they can start up a union that will presumably give nothing back.
My point exactly. ALPA failed, and I beleive a well run campaign that offered a union label to a SAPA type organization might have a greater chance if financed. If being unionized were important, ALPA (and perhaps SWAPA, APA, USAPA, etc) would support that without a "pay back".
11-01-2009, 04:07 PM
#74
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Tony,
WOW! All I can say, you sadly don't appreciate the power of a union. About the only way to get fired at my employer: Steal or lie, or repeatedly fail to show up to work or report to work drunk. .....
We have in our contract provisions for folks who cannot pass an upgrade. You would not have lost your job. Our contract would exhaust more training, more OE, finally if still unable to muster through, Return to your previous F/O seat .......
Your comment on ALPA is dead on, but that my friend IS politics.
WOW! All I can say, you sadly don't appreciate the power of a union. About the only way to get fired at my employer: Steal or lie, or repeatedly fail to show up to work or report to work drunk. .....
We have in our contract provisions for folks who cannot pass an upgrade. You would not have lost your job. Our contract would exhaust more training, more OE, finally if still unable to muster through, Return to your previous F/O seat .......
Your comment on ALPA is dead on, but that my friend IS politics.
Firing for failing upgrade is the current rule. I suspect that based on the sime fact that the current captains support the rule, it would continue into any union contract. But the simple answer is; we cannot know for sure, and just having a union is no guarantee that rule will change.
Current captains at SkW have failed transition training from he prop to the jet and they keep their jobs and return to the previous seat. They got theirs, and now they're protected.
Get drunk.... There's a program. Have a certificate action, company has a lawyer. But, fail upgrade, fired... No hearing, no review.
So, I am arguing that a union is appropriate, but ALPA is not the answer, nor will any union necessarily change things. Reality. And as has been pointed out, should a union show up and the company play hardball, it could be worse.
11-01-2009, 04:35 PM
#75
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Firing for failing upgrade is the current rule. I suspect that based on the sime fact that the current captains support the rule, it would continue into any union contract. But the simple answer is; we cannot know for sure, and just having a union is no guarantee that rule will change.
Current captains at SkW have failed transition training from he prop to the jet and they keep their jobs and return to the previous seat. They got theirs, and now they're protected.
Get drunk.... There's a program. Have a certificate action, company has a lawyer. But, fail upgrade, fired... No hearing, no review.
So, I am arguing that a union is appropriate, but ALPA is not the answer, nor will any union necessarily change things. Reality. And as has been pointed out, should a union show up and the company play hardball, it could be worse.
Current captains at SkW have failed transition training from he prop to the jet and they keep their jobs and return to the previous seat. They got theirs, and now they're protected.
Get drunk.... There's a program. Have a certificate action, company has a lawyer. But, fail upgrade, fired... No hearing, no review.
So, I am arguing that a union is appropriate, but ALPA is not the answer, nor will any union necessarily change things. Reality. And as has been pointed out, should a union show up and the company play hardball, it could be worse.
11-01-2009, 06:23 PM
#76
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Self employed
Posts: 3,048
They haven't always done the "upgrade training failure equals fired". If I remember correctly, it was changed to that about fifteen years ago. Nothing new there. And they have probably always gone out of their way to fire those other training issues, also. Sure, more so now that they haven't furloughed than in the past. But, there are a few check airman that everybody at SkW knows are the "hatchet men". Nothing new there, either.
So, a union may improve those issues. Or it may not. A union would be able to fight after the fact where SAPA cannot.
Any contract would have to be ratified by the entire group
Are SKW F/O's that lethargic? Would surmise that the F/O's would take the lead, after all, they 'don't have theirs' yet. Doesn't matter to you and me, but it is an interesting spectacle unfolding.
Well, the FO's are outnumbered, so even if there was a "party line" vote, the FO's would lose. Can't comment on whether FO's are lethargic, since I only flew with captains and heard their side of things. But, I suspect that support for a union at SkW is only slightly higher among FO's than CA's.
As ALPA found out, it wasn't even close.
11-01-2009, 06:34 PM
#77
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Posts: 3,048
Trying to sum up.... Things will have to actually get bad (as perceived by the majority of SkW pilots) BEFORE a union would be successful.
Promises of how rosey it would be aren't going to work. People know better. And a relative few think it's a bad place to work. When ALPA carrier Mesa had a 50% turn over in pilots a few years ago, those that weren't going to a major were coming to SkW. By the droves. I doubt even a majority of those former Mesa pilots voted for ALPA.
Senior captains are very happy. Paid relatively well, great schedule, in a secure company. They've never been in ANY union, and they're not changing what works for them. They're not voting in any union.
The most junior FO's still have koolaid stains on their lips, except for the ones on reserve, and will be on reserve for a long time. They might vote a union, but guess what. Not a single thing will change for them. They'll still be on reserve, commuting to some garden spot like FAT.
Probably the single biggest crapped on group are the most junior captains. That's were your support for a union lies. And they are grossly outnumbered.
Promises of how rosey it would be aren't going to work. People know better. And a relative few think it's a bad place to work. When ALPA carrier Mesa had a 50% turn over in pilots a few years ago, those that weren't going to a major were coming to SkW. By the droves. I doubt even a majority of those former Mesa pilots voted for ALPA.
Senior captains are very happy. Paid relatively well, great schedule, in a secure company. They've never been in ANY union, and they're not changing what works for them. They're not voting in any union.
The most junior FO's still have koolaid stains on their lips, except for the ones on reserve, and will be on reserve for a long time. They might vote a union, but guess what. Not a single thing will change for them. They'll still be on reserve, commuting to some garden spot like FAT.
Probably the single biggest crapped on group are the most junior captains. That's were your support for a union lies. And they are grossly outnumbered.
11-01-2009, 06:56 PM
#78
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Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
Trying to sum up.... Things will have to actually get bad (as perceived by the majority of SkW pilots) BEFORE a union would be successful.
Promises of how rosey it would be aren't going to work. People know better. And a relative few think it's a bad place to work. When ALPA carrier Mesa had a 50% turn over in pilots a few years ago, those that weren't going to a major were coming to SkW. By the droves. I doubt even a majority of those former Mesa pilots voted for ALPA.
Senior captains are very happy. Paid relatively well, great schedule, in a secure company. They've never been in ANY union, and they're not changing what works for them. They're not voting in any union.
The most junior FO's still have koolaid stains on their lips, except for the ones on reserve, and will be on reserve for a long time. They might vote a union, but guess what. Not a single thing will change for them. They'll still be on reserve, commuting to some garden spot like FAT.
Probably the single biggest crapped on group are the most junior captains. That's were your support for a union lies. And they are grossly outnumbered.
Promises of how rosey it would be aren't going to work. People know better. And a relative few think it's a bad place to work. When ALPA carrier Mesa had a 50% turn over in pilots a few years ago, those that weren't going to a major were coming to SkW. By the droves. I doubt even a majority of those former Mesa pilots voted for ALPA.
Senior captains are very happy. Paid relatively well, great schedule, in a secure company. They've never been in ANY union, and they're not changing what works for them. They're not voting in any union.
The most junior FO's still have koolaid stains on their lips, except for the ones on reserve, and will be on reserve for a long time. They might vote a union, but guess what. Not a single thing will change for them. They'll still be on reserve, commuting to some garden spot like FAT.
Probably the single biggest crapped on group are the most junior captains. That's were your support for a union lies. And they are grossly outnumbered.
Tony, you may want to stop "speaking" as if you know everyones thoughts and feelings here... I can assure you that not all "senior captains are very happy"! Some of us actually have a brain and can see there is room for improvement. In general, the only time progress in negotiations has been made is during our union drives. Every time after the drive has failed, we start to slide backwards until frustration builds enough to have another drive, and the game starts all over again.
11-01-2009, 07:19 PM
#79
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Posts: 3,048
So, I'll just continue on. Thanks anyway !!!! Hugs and kisses.
Oh, and yes, I think the most senior captains are quite happy as a group. Sorry if that offends you individually.
11-01-2009, 07:23 PM
#80
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I don't want to end on a glib note with you... perhaps you can suggest what it would take to get a union vote over the hump?
Also, if you feel that my comments about senior captains is off base as a group, please explain how YOU think that group views any union.
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