Has ALPA done anything for you EVER?
10-23-2009, 07:10 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
[quote=goaround2000;699683]For those of you that are asking what ALPA has done for me or any of us lately here's a couple of things:
FOQA Data
ASAP
Aeromedical
Fatigue calls now ASAP protected and paid protected (at XJT and coming soon to an airline near you).
Here's a couple that everyone, even the none ALPA folks benefit from:
Crew Pass
CASS (originally suggested and tested by ALPA and ALPA carriers).
National representation on issues such as fatigue and duty times (incidentally I've yet to see the reps from any non-ALPA carriers at capitol hill).[/quote]
I'm sure the pilots represented by American (APA), Southwest(SWAPA), UPS (IPA), USAirways/America West (USAPA), CAPA and the IBT represented airlines...might disagree with you and ask which hearings, meetings and briefings you attended.
As I understand it, Sully and Skiles went with the Teamsters Airline Division for their testimony and meetings. These groups have been pushing hard on outsourcing (MRO's and flying), security, training and crew rest/fatigue issues.
They also stood together nationally, despite union affiliation, to support the 60 pilots of Amerijet who went on strike. Their support of those pilot unions; along with that of AFL-CIO unions throughout South Florida and individual pilots from ALPA carriers, ended the strike and the pilots got their first contract after 5 years of negotiating. Only one national pilots union no showed after promising to "send a delegation"...that never showed.
Those groups represent about 28,000 pilots from fractionals to regionals, cargo and mainline.
FOQA Data
ASAP
Aeromedical
Fatigue calls now ASAP protected and paid protected (at XJT and coming soon to an airline near you).
Here's a couple that everyone, even the none ALPA folks benefit from:
Crew Pass
CASS (originally suggested and tested by ALPA and ALPA carriers).
National representation on issues such as fatigue and duty times (incidentally I've yet to see the reps from any non-ALPA carriers at capitol hill).[/quote]
I'm sure the pilots represented by American (APA), Southwest(SWAPA), UPS (IPA), USAirways/America West (USAPA), CAPA and the IBT represented airlines...might disagree with you and ask which hearings, meetings and briefings you attended.
As I understand it, Sully and Skiles went with the Teamsters Airline Division for their testimony and meetings. These groups have been pushing hard on outsourcing (MRO's and flying), security, training and crew rest/fatigue issues.
They also stood together nationally, despite union affiliation, to support the 60 pilots of Amerijet who went on strike. Their support of those pilot unions; along with that of AFL-CIO unions throughout South Florida and individual pilots from ALPA carriers, ended the strike and the pilots got their first contract after 5 years of negotiating. Only one national pilots union no showed after promising to "send a delegation"...that never showed.
Those groups represent about 28,000 pilots from fractionals to regionals, cargo and mainline.
10-23-2009, 07:25 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 910
Your colleagues at your own airline negotiated that for you...
So much blame toward ALPA as if it was some mythical entity, and yet so little recognition that ALPA is not just its elected/volunteer leadership but rather every single member that has a card and wears a pin. Everybody wants milk and honey to flow to them simply because they're union, but nobody wants to make any personal sacrifices in order to achieve it.
YOU are ALPA...if you don't like what is going on (and there's plenty to not like) you've got two choices...complain on the interwebs or ditch your apathy and actually start working to better things.
So much blame toward ALPA as if it was some mythical entity, and yet so little recognition that ALPA is not just its elected/volunteer leadership but rather every single member that has a card and wears a pin. Everybody wants milk and honey to flow to them simply because they're union, but nobody wants to make any personal sacrifices in order to achieve it.
YOU are ALPA...if you don't like what is going on (and there's plenty to not like) you've got two choices...complain on the interwebs or ditch your apathy and actually start working to better things.
Half measures taken often equal half positive results.
10-23-2009, 08:26 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: CRJ
Posts: 249
I have had my issues with ALPA, especially when I was new and they screwed me out of our contract vote and put me in bad standing for not paying merger fund dues fast enough for them... However, in all fairness they did do something for me that I thought was pretty cool and it was a hell of a lot more than my own company did for me... I was out on FMLA for 2 months and ALPA actually sent me a check to help me out. I was very surprised and grateful as that was the only income I had during those 2 months on medical leave.
10-23-2009, 08:51 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: O-2 pilot
Posts: 123
Sometimes you may not think ALPA is worth much in your day to day lives. Some of the advantages that ALPA has won can seem mundane at times. In these tough times I think it would be hard for any union not to be questioned as to it's effectiveness.
But, in a way, ALPA is like having house insurance. You never really appreciate it until you actually use it.
Here's one thing ALPA has done for me-- About six years ago my airline was going through contract negotiations. It was bad times with hard feelings between management and pilots. A new chief pilot was brought in who had a reputation as a hard ass and a pilot pusher. Rumor had it that he tried to peel pilots away from ALPA solidarity as well.
I had worked at this airline for about five years or so at this time. I never caused any trouble and almost never even saw any of our chief pilots. I was as anonymous as they come. But I was a member of my local membership and safety committees. While on the safety committee a pilot came to me about being threatened with suspension for asking for a leg to be pulled because of fatigue. I pursued this and apparently made the new chief pilot very unhappy. I also wrote some harsh words on the union website about recent pilot pushing and the new management's attitude about contract negotiations in general.
A few weeks after that a flew some trips with some very senior pilots. At the end of the trips the pilots confessed with me that the chief pilot had ask them to try to dig up dirt on me about non-standard flying, or whatever they could come up with. Of course, they were very happy with my flying and standard procedures and couldn't understand why the chief pilot had sent them on the covert mission. At the time neither could I.
A little while after that two more strange things happened. While waiting to board a flight to commute home one night a customer service manager asked to speak to me in private. He took me to a back room out of the main terminal. Once there he started shouting at me. I forget the exact words, but basically he was blaming me (and pilots in general) for the economic woes of the airline because he thought we were asking for too much in the ongoing contract negotiations. I told him he was nuts and tried to leave but I didn't have the code to get out of the room he took me to. This guy told me that "I wasn't dismissed" and wouldn't let me leave until he finished his rant. I basically told him that he wasn't in my chain of command and I didn't have to stand there and listen to him. This angered him more and he then proceded to tell me that as soon as the contract was signed that there was a secret plot to fire me. I'm not sure if he let this secret out because he lost his cool while yelling at me, or if he was just trying to scare me. The whole situation was surreal.
Shortly thereafter I was trying to drive to work in zero visibility fog. It was one of those end of winter state wide fogs. Everything was grounded. I called scheduled and told them I was going to be late. It didn't matter much since nothing got off the ground until later that day. A week or so after that I was called into the chief pilot's office by surprise. The chief was very angry with me because my mustache wasn't trimmed properly. He also threatened to suspend me because I was late three times in the past year (two of the times were because of scheduling computer errors that were already suppossed to have been cleared up, but never were, and the other time was the fog incident). I asked that since this was a disiplinary meeting that my union rep be present. The chief then told me that if I asked for that I would automatically be suspended for 2 weeks.
When I got to the motel later that night I called my union rep and explained what happened. I think Kris Pierson was his name. The next time I went in to speak to the chief pilot I brought him with me. I can tell you that the treatment I got from management was night and day difference with a union rep along. This alone was worth all the dues I have ever paid to ALPA!
But, in a way, ALPA is like having house insurance. You never really appreciate it until you actually use it.
Here's one thing ALPA has done for me-- About six years ago my airline was going through contract negotiations. It was bad times with hard feelings between management and pilots. A new chief pilot was brought in who had a reputation as a hard ass and a pilot pusher. Rumor had it that he tried to peel pilots away from ALPA solidarity as well.
I had worked at this airline for about five years or so at this time. I never caused any trouble and almost never even saw any of our chief pilots. I was as anonymous as they come. But I was a member of my local membership and safety committees. While on the safety committee a pilot came to me about being threatened with suspension for asking for a leg to be pulled because of fatigue. I pursued this and apparently made the new chief pilot very unhappy. I also wrote some harsh words on the union website about recent pilot pushing and the new management's attitude about contract negotiations in general.
A few weeks after that a flew some trips with some very senior pilots. At the end of the trips the pilots confessed with me that the chief pilot had ask them to try to dig up dirt on me about non-standard flying, or whatever they could come up with. Of course, they were very happy with my flying and standard procedures and couldn't understand why the chief pilot had sent them on the covert mission. At the time neither could I.
A little while after that two more strange things happened. While waiting to board a flight to commute home one night a customer service manager asked to speak to me in private. He took me to a back room out of the main terminal. Once there he started shouting at me. I forget the exact words, but basically he was blaming me (and pilots in general) for the economic woes of the airline because he thought we were asking for too much in the ongoing contract negotiations. I told him he was nuts and tried to leave but I didn't have the code to get out of the room he took me to. This guy told me that "I wasn't dismissed" and wouldn't let me leave until he finished his rant. I basically told him that he wasn't in my chain of command and I didn't have to stand there and listen to him. This angered him more and he then proceded to tell me that as soon as the contract was signed that there was a secret plot to fire me. I'm not sure if he let this secret out because he lost his cool while yelling at me, or if he was just trying to scare me. The whole situation was surreal.
Shortly thereafter I was trying to drive to work in zero visibility fog. It was one of those end of winter state wide fogs. Everything was grounded. I called scheduled and told them I was going to be late. It didn't matter much since nothing got off the ground until later that day. A week or so after that I was called into the chief pilot's office by surprise. The chief was very angry with me because my mustache wasn't trimmed properly. He also threatened to suspend me because I was late three times in the past year (two of the times were because of scheduling computer errors that were already suppossed to have been cleared up, but never were, and the other time was the fog incident). I asked that since this was a disiplinary meeting that my union rep be present. The chief then told me that if I asked for that I would automatically be suspended for 2 weeks.
When I got to the motel later that night I called my union rep and explained what happened. I think Kris Pierson was his name. The next time I went in to speak to the chief pilot I brought him with me. I can tell you that the treatment I got from management was night and day difference with a union rep along. This alone was worth all the dues I have ever paid to ALPA!
10-25-2009, 08:18 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 183
How many of you ALPA naysayers even bothered to vote in your last elections? I know that ALPA is not perfect, it has a lot of flaws. But if your not going to be pro-active to help fix it then you have no space to complain. Furthermore, any person that is soo delusional to think that the volunteers have a cake walk needs to reevaluate there position. I know many union officials who regularly give up there free time for union business. No compensation for time or pay. Only for there acrued expenses and should they be working there flight pay loss. I know of several people who for months on end only had 7 days off or less.. 7- days because they are out trying to make a difference for you, even if they arn't succeeding. There is no compensation for volunteering on days off.
So you are angry because your dues pay for the flight pay that they lost during there service to you. What do you want, for your volunteers to take a paycut because they are volunteering to make try to make stuff better? So your safety reps, when they are on scene at an accident, should have to give up a years pay, to try to figure out what happened. Your pilot reps should have to give up there flight pay every time they defend a pilot for doing something stupid? etc, etc?
How greedy are you sir, Yes 2% of your pay is significant. But ya know what, when was the last time you gave anything other than what was the minimum required of you? Before you cast a stone, get out there and try to fix it yourself. Volunteer some, try to make a difference.
WE are ALPA.
So you are angry because your dues pay for the flight pay that they lost during there service to you. What do you want, for your volunteers to take a paycut because they are volunteering to make try to make stuff better? So your safety reps, when they are on scene at an accident, should have to give up a years pay, to try to figure out what happened. Your pilot reps should have to give up there flight pay every time they defend a pilot for doing something stupid? etc, etc?
How greedy are you sir, Yes 2% of your pay is significant. But ya know what, when was the last time you gave anything other than what was the minimum required of you? Before you cast a stone, get out there and try to fix it yourself. Volunteer some, try to make a difference.
WE are ALPA.
10-26-2009, 06:21 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 585
Let's see.. ALPA Aeromedical has and continues to be a great help when it comes to the medical. Without them I'd have flown illegal flights if I'd relied on AOPA's medical department (AOPA is clueless about 121 ops). ALPA (and showing up at the Feds everyday at Airventure) got the medical back with minimal grounding time, my mistake in having seen a bad egg AME.
I enjoyed crewpass, made good use of the jumpseat, and wasn't video-recorded for more than a minute or two while in the cockpit as a tourist passed by filming their little one's first plane ride. As the world continues on the trend of criminalizing aircraft accidents and incidents, it's nice to know that not every move in the cockpit will be analyzed for violations and liability.
The occasional comment while sitting for hours at EWR on the taxiway, in technical violation of sterile cockpit, didn't result in getting fired, even with a check airman in the next seat. The FOQA data told the company it wasn't the sterile cockpit violations that were trying to kill crews, it was a feeder route into MSLW, since changed.
I suppose the labor rules, lots of safety stuff like not having to fly 24/7, getting per diem during training, having the hotel room paid for, getting hired in the first place, and a few other things can be traced to ALPA having a hand in them.
However, ALPA is currently not standing here fanning me with palm fronds, massaging my feet, feeding me grapes and bon-bons, while starting a new airline with no passengers so I can fly whenever I want, and I'm on a seemingly anonymous message board, so I should be complaining.
I enjoyed crewpass, made good use of the jumpseat, and wasn't video-recorded for more than a minute or two while in the cockpit as a tourist passed by filming their little one's first plane ride. As the world continues on the trend of criminalizing aircraft accidents and incidents, it's nice to know that not every move in the cockpit will be analyzed for violations and liability.
The occasional comment while sitting for hours at EWR on the taxiway, in technical violation of sterile cockpit, didn't result in getting fired, even with a check airman in the next seat. The FOQA data told the company it wasn't the sterile cockpit violations that were trying to kill crews, it was a feeder route into MSLW, since changed.
I suppose the labor rules, lots of safety stuff like not having to fly 24/7, getting per diem during training, having the hotel room paid for, getting hired in the first place, and a few other things can be traced to ALPA having a hand in them.
However, ALPA is currently not standing here fanning me with palm fronds, massaging my feet, feeding me grapes and bon-bons, while starting a new airline with no passengers so I can fly whenever I want, and I'm on a seemingly anonymous message board, so I should be complaining.
10-26-2009, 08:58 AM
#48
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: CRJ700 - I get to steer.
Posts: 17
Your colleagues at your own airline negotiated that for you...
So much blame toward ALPA as if it was some mythical entity, and yet so little recognition that ALPA is not just its elected/volunteer leadership but rather every single member that has a card and wears a pin. Everybody wants milk and honey to flow to them simply because they're union, but nobody wants to make any personal sacrifices in order to achieve it.
YOU are ALPA...if you don't like what is going on (and there's plenty to not like) you've got two choices...complain on the interwebs or ditch your apathy and actually start working to better things.
So much blame toward ALPA as if it was some mythical entity, and yet so little recognition that ALPA is not just its elected/volunteer leadership but rather every single member that has a card and wears a pin. Everybody wants milk and honey to flow to them simply because they're union, but nobody wants to make any personal sacrifices in order to achieve it.
YOU are ALPA...if you don't like what is going on (and there's plenty to not like) you've got two choices...complain on the interwebs or ditch your apathy and actually start working to better things.
All of you who think ALPA isn't looking out for you, need to look at the big picture, and do a little history reading. Ie. "Flying the Line"
You want to see more changes, then step up. Back up your big words with some action. VOLUNTEER at your airline.
10-26-2009, 09:05 AM
#49
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,611
Originally Posted by GlobeTreker
3. I am extremely greedy. Thanks for asking. I do this job for money.
Sounds like you'd do yourself a HUGE favor by leaving the airlines and entering business aviation at your very first opportunity.
10-26-2009, 09:27 AM
#50
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,611
I don't see how you can blame ALPA for your own expectations for career & salary progression going unrealized, especially when the "rules" were widely available to you the day you accepted employment.
I love flying but I have a responsibility to provide for my family.
Kudos to you for having your priorities in line (and for not allowing this God-forsaken industry to change them).
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