planediveguy

Funny to see someone mention "trickle down"... another sound bite that is pure BS.

The only thing that trickled down to the middle class during the Bush years and now with Obamarama is that stuff that flows downhill...

And the top 1% of the richest folks got a lot richer during the last Admin... did you get better?

Lab Rat

As a matter of fact I did. I started college during the last two years of President George H.W. Bush's term and finished during President Clinton's first term in office.

During President Clinton's administration, I spent that time building my hours and living paycheck-to-paycheck as I competed along with everyone else for a better job and a better life.

I landed a job at a major cargo airline shortly after President George W. Bush took office and have held it ever since. During this time I have seen my earnings increase and my QOL improve for the better. All of the hard work I put forth to earn my education and my experience is paying off. What I pay in taxes each year exceeds my highest W2 earnings prior to a major.

So yes, I am better off today than I have been in the past. And what is my reward for this? Because I am guilty of being successful and achieving a goal I had set for myself two decades ago, some want to brand me as "evil" and think I should pay more in taxes!

How are we supposed to encourage innovation, hard work and breed success in our young people when the fruits of their labor are going to be punished by paying higher taxes?

Capitalism has been very good to me. Yes, there was a time when I lived on no-brand peanut butter and ramen noodles, so capitalism did not hand me a good career and QOL on a gold-plated platter. What capitalism did do was offer me an opportunity to compete against like-minded individuals for a coveted career. I seized the opportunity and it worked out in my favor. It could have easily gone the other way, but nonetheless the opportunity wouldn't have presented itself under any other system such as the one we have today.

dojetdriver

I'm not flaming you, so don't get spooled up. But there sure is a lot of I in there. Something that needs to be realized; Not EVERYBODY has been able to take advantage of the same thing you have. And many of those people experienced the SAME things you have to try to achieve those goals.

Compare how many pilots the "major" cargo carriers employ to how many pilots have been or are currently furloughed since 9/11.

And like I said, I'm not flaming you, but please don't go on about what a superior choice was made about going cargo vs. pax. For many, it's simply luck of the draw and who called them first.

OldSF3Dude

Reminds me of Pennsylvania, 1779.

Rascal

So if your taxes were 5% higher you would not have found the motivation to pursue your dream of a highly paid airline pilot? Don't tell me that taxes or money motivates people to accomplish their goals, if that were true we would not see any teachers or pilots out there. I hear that the guy that owns IKEA pays close to 80% in taxes and yet he is motivated enough to run his business. Scandinavia has one of the highest taxes in the world and their economy seems to be just fine. I lived there and trust me average joe in the USA may be paying less taxes than Norwegians but they have much higher standard of living.

Oh, and just because YOU got lucky it does not mean that others worked any less or sacrificed more than you did without making it the almighty Fedex/UPS. Remeber karma is b@#tch and someday you maybe back on the street making peanuts again.

Lab Rat

If you want to get me spooled up you are going to have to work a lot harder at it than this.

As it should be. Restated another way, if not I then who? Regardless of the goals and aspirations of any given individual, there has to be some degree of hard work, determination, and motivation to achieve that goal. Nobody is going to give you the degree, fly the hours for you, and make those personal contacts on your behalf - that is just a sampling of things you must do yourself.

Correct, and many others will have or have had advantages that I was unable to use too. Why? It isn't a level playing field - never has been and it never will be. I know people who landed great jobs with either less qualifications or with contacts I didn't have. Instead of focusing on the fairness aspect I did the best I could with what I had.

Correct again. Let me add something to your statement. All of us have this in common when we decide to pursue flying as a career: none of us are guaranteed anything in this industry. Some make it and some don't - but nobody knows who will and who won't succeed.

And compare how many pilots cargo has historically employed on their payrolls with that of the passenger carriers along with fleet size and route structure.

When several major passenger airlines decide to furlough 10% (or more) of their seniority lists it adds up. This may be a separate topic for another thread, but I also want to add that cargo and passenger flying are two completely different business models.

I won't. My decision to fly cargo over passengers was strictly a personal preference.

For the most part I agree with you. However, I personally know several people who chose not to pursue cargo and I know of a few who left cargo to fly passengers. I'm not saying they are neither good nor bad, educated or uneducated, just a simple personal preference on their part.

Lab Rat

First, I don't believe in karma. What comes around doesn't always go around.

Second, I don't believe in luck either. Do you believe Warren Buffet is who is today because of "luck"?

And third, never in any of my posts did I imply nor infer that I worked or sacrificed more than anyone else. In fact, if you actually read and comprehend what I wrote, then you will notice I mentioned that the playing is not level.

I'll be more than happy to contribute to this discussion and address your points, but only if you agree to do so without throwing a temper tantrum.

dojetdriver

Thanks

Agreed, but the point was missed. There are plenty of people that checked off ALL of those boxes, aren't any better off today than in the past.

Again, agree. But you can't deny the process of getting hired at a "major" cargo carrier pre 9/11 was at all the same as has been when they hired recently. Topic for another thread, but you can't deny that reality.

Good point, but that just helps to clarify my point. Those such as yourself are in the minority in this career. Being a pilot at a major cargo company, AND doing better now than you have in the past.

See above.

I know many who had cargo as their first choice as well. But I'll repeat it, for many it WASN'T their first, second, or even third choice. It was who called first, or who flat out called at all. Again, you can't deny that reality.

Lab Rat

Dojet,

thanks for the well-thought out and insightful responses. With only so much one can convey via bandwith, it sometimes takes a few attempts to clarify. I'll do my best.

Agreed, and I will also submit that many have checked off even more boxes as well. No fault of their own, a lot of we have to acknowledge going into this is timing, who we know, and being in the right place at the right time. True, the "I" is important and somewhat of a controlled variable, but the other three I just mentioned are many times out of our control.

You are correct, as it was a much different time then. Who in their right mind would have turned down an offer from one of the big 3 and many of the smaller ones? I am not any smarter nor are they any less smart for making the choices that we did. None of us have nor had a crystal ball.

And hopefully the minority will grow to include more people. But yes, I do agree that I am certainly in the minority - only complete ignorance would compel someone to deny it. But, with regards to original question regarding if I am better or worse off today, I took that as being on a personal or micro level as it applies to me personally. I just looked at where I was then and where I am now and didn't intend to compare pax vs cargo. It just happened.

Agreed, as most people are going to take that first offer because many offers do not happen for the majority and only a handful of people were or are fortunate to have the luxury of many offers. I was fortunate in that my first preference/choice was my first offer. Could it have turned out much differently? Absolutely. Pax weren't my first choice, but it was and still is much better than what I was doing.

Rascal

No, I do not think it is all luck but I do think it is hard work and luck combined. All I am saying that for every 100 hard working pilots only 10 get to be a heavy Captains. With all things being equal some pilots get lucky and end up working for a company that doesn't cut their pay in half and some end up at UPS. Working for United airlines used to be a dream job and working for UPS was not something to brag about. Even though the road to United Airlines was long and hard in the end it was not the dream job that people have hoped for, so yes I think that people like you should consider themselves lucky and not attribute all their financial success to hard work alone.