JeepDrowner

and under current reg.'s for atp, only have your SIC counts for the 1500 hours required for upgrade. so as long as we're doing math.

500 hour wonder will need at least 2,000 hours of flight time (and to be 23 y. o )

will colgan go to the streets to find their skippers as they have in the past?

i'd bet my commutair paycheck on it. (so $2)

newarkblows

I didnt think that was going to be replaced. I am pretty sure it will be at 29 confirmed q400's for CAL with another 15 options for CAL. I could be wrong though

TPROP4ever

Unless I'm misreading your post, you are refering to the Half allowable SIC time? IF so then I think you are wrong on this, here is why:
Half your SIC time is allowable towards the PIC requirement for ATP( the theory being that in 121 ops as SIC you are sole manipulator 50% of the time ), all SIC time is allowable toward the 1500 TT limit, because it is just that 1500 hours TOTAL TIME. Also you are a required crew member on that flight, that is flight time, as long as your plane requires two pilots.

Alknew182

Yes, but you will have a restriction on you ATP that reads:

Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO

Must have no more then half of 1200 as SIC, so the ones with 400 when they started will have that restriction.

BlueMoon

fillllllllllller

makeitra

Kind of confused as to what "Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO" means? Could you still be allowed to be PIC of a 121 airliner with this restriction? Y/N

Also generally confused by all the requirements stated here? It might help me understand better if someone could run and example of say a guy who was hired at a 121 airline with say 800 hours. How much more flight time (assuming the pilot is an SIC at a 121 airline) would this pilot need to be fully qualified to fly as PIC of a 121 airliner (ie fully qualified to have and unrestricted ATP)?

Thanks in advance

TPROP4ever

Ok after having read 61.159
I think this is what I get from it

Person starts 121 flying (during the hiring boom) with 300TT and 150 PIC. He can apply for an ATP at 1500 hrs, but will have the restriction until he reaches 2401TT, therefore making the 1200 sic time ( that he used to meet the 1500TT requirment) less than 1/2 of his TT, at which point he may have the restriction removed....am I correct???

But then you have this little ammendment effective aug 20th to boot

Amendment(s) published August 21, 2009, in 74 FR 42561

Effective Date(s): October 20, 2009
37. Amend §61.159 by adding a new paragraph (c)(3); and revising paragraphs (d) and (e) to read as follows:

§ 61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(c) * * *
(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time—
(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;
(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and
(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(d) An applicant is issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the limitation, “Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO,” as prescribed under Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant does not meet the ICAO requirements contained in Annex 1 “Personnel Licensing” to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, but otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.
(e) An applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the ICAO limitation specified under paragraph (d) of this section when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the ICAO requirements under paragraph (d) of this section and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.

higney85

I don't have a dog in this fight but with current rule making in progress it would not surprise me to see the "numbers" changed. Also, from talking with others at different carriers in comparison to my own there are typically other mins established to be able to upgrade. I know a few have 3500TT with 500 in type of 3000 with 1500 in type or some other type of formula.

At the parent company of Colgan (Pinnacle) the 9E (Pinnacle airlines) had a 3500TT requirement with 500 jet to be a "Street CA", then amended to 3500/500 jet and 100 in type at 9E, later a "Mentor program" where you could upgrade with 2000TT with 1500 in type (at 9E) after 100 hours with a "mentor CA"- (basically a check airman trained CA that makes sure you have your poop in a group). That was all during the last wave, I doubt we will see companies bending over to get street CA's in- especially at Colgan where the training standards got put in the spotlight in a negative way.

No bashes on anyone or any company, just saying the ATP argument may be all for nothing right now- especially with the options being in 2013. I would imagine most FO's at Colgan would far and exceed upgrade mins when the new birds would show up anyway.

shadyops

its cool i like being furloughed. oh wait no i don't.

Sniper

To clarify, pilots with 400 TT when they started @ a 121 carrier won't be able to upgrade (you can't have that restriction on your ATP and operate a 121 aircraft as PIC) until they have 1200 TT, no more than 1/2 of which is SIC. If you have 400 TT now, you can still upgrade to the left seat, provided you have 250 PIC - you can get the rest of the time just sitting in the right seat of a regional.

Perhaps I misunderstood you when you said, "the ones with 400 when they started will have that restriction."? They are not destined to have it, which is how I read the statement. My apologies if I misinterpreted.

No.

As far as “Accumulation of flight experience” to get an ATP (and use it as the PIC of a 121 aircraft), you need:
1) 1500 TT2) @ least 1200 TT3) 500 hours of XC (50 nm’s b/t t/o and landing)

4) 100 hours of night (A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hr. of night flight time, limited to not more than 25 hr. of night flight time.)

5) 75 hours instrument (actual or simulated), of which a max of 25 hours of which may be in a simulator or FTD

6) 250 hours of PIC (or as SIC “performing the duties and functions of a PIC”. If you do it this way, you have to do @ least 100 hours of XC and 25 hours of night as “SIC performing the duties and functions of a PIC”)So, what does this all really mean for a low-time FO? It takes about 250 hours minimum to get a CMEL-I, none of which is SIC usually (and not all of which is PIC!). So, say you have 250 PIC for simplicity.

The first big hang-up is the 1200 TT, with ½ your SIC time counting. So, to get the 1200 needed, you need an additional 1900 of SIC @ the regional’s (1200-250=950. 950 x 2 = 1900).

The other big hang-up is the 250 PIC. You can't count 'student pilot' time, which is the time you spent getting your private (the first PIC you can log is your Private Pilot Check-ride), and the time in a MEL you spent getting your MEL (your first hour of multi-PIC is likely your CMEL-I ride). Just go rent a 152 if you need extra PIC time . . . unless someone wants to tell me that SIC time in an RJ counts for this too - I am pretty sure it doesn't after throughly reading the FAR, which I quoted for reference. Anyone REALLY know for sure? (Please don't post a theory - only correct me if you KNOW I'm wrong, and have proof, since I'm not a DE. Thanks).

For our 800 TT pilot, assuming this pilot has the 250 PIC (and will have the 500 XC, 100 night, and 75 instrument requirements @ the time they go for upgrade, which I would think a regional FO could do - log all that instrument and night!), and now has roughly 475 SIC to go along with it (the 75 hours or so it takes when a pilot is getting their PPL (55 hours) and MEL (15 hours) isn't PIC or SIC either, it's 'student'.), he/she would need an additional 1425 of regional SIC before they could upgrade (1200-250=950. 950x2=1900. 1900–475=1425).

Oh, and finally: you have to know “Applicable Federal Aviation Regulations of this chapter that relate to airline transport pilot privileges, limitations, and flight operations” . . . in short, you have to know how to read FAR’s. That one is 61.155(c)(1), though if you learned a thing by reading this, you should consider brushing up on FAR 61.159 too.

--
Does anyone else think it ironic that the absolute legal minimums to get a pilot into the left seat of a 121 aircraft end up being discussed on a Colgan thread, given the Congressional scrutiny of regional pilot experience brought to light by two Colgan pilots (both of whom appear to have had the experience for an ATP)?