TPROP4ever

Best description of the airline industry I have heard to date.... until we all aim the hammer at the right people ( and its not each other) we are destined to continue the spiral

DYNASTY HVY

And so it begs the question of when is it enough and when does the spiral stop ?



Fred

TPROP4ever

And that is the multi million dollar question. Unfortunatly too many pilots are too busy with blinders on trying to destroy each other, they dont see the forest through the trees...sigh

JumpSeater

Oh, yeah... make no mistake that the usual people who show up on these threads do no more than provide the entertainment for the rest who are tired of listening to their woes, but can't turn it off. Just like a bad soap opera.

I really liked the one about the United guys being okay because they have gone through such hardships, but the rest are not because they haven't. Maybe everyone should just carry around their employment history and if it is lousy enough you get to come along.

Mason32

I agree to a certain extent. I disagree when people think it was about getting 70 seaters, or about creating a 2nd airline to do it... the only issue that matters is Hulas made a second pilot list. Everything else is stuff that had to happen to circumvent existing feed contracts... so it isn't about GoJets getting bigger planes, or even the creation of a second airline (since RAH has shown that multiple airlines can have one list). This whole thing is about having a second seniority list; period. Anybody arguing otherwise is just muddying the water.

Absolutely it was about AE/AMR... what TSA is living now is just a Hulas copycating AMR and the many Eagles...

250 or point 65

I just love the guys that make the argument that we should all just get along, pilots vs. pilots doesn't solve anything, and generally that we should just turn the other cheek.

These people make the pilots who toe the line look like the bad guys and quite honestly, I have a question for those people:

Considering that GoJet was staffed by pilots that were willing to accept less while another pilot group was toeing the line, just as in a strike, how is what they are doing acceptable? How is it OK to undercut a group of pilots who are trying to better the industry?

I have never and never will call any GJer a scab, but would those of you who say that we should all just get along accept those who crossed picket lines as well?

I honestly want an answer to that, but my point is that everyone has a different definition of what is tolerable. There are pilots that are legitimately angry because others crossed a picket line to circumvent contract negotiations at CAL. There are also pilots that are legitimately angry that pilots crossed over and are staffing an airline to circumvent contract negotiations at TSA.

They did not cross a picket line, but they are the reason why mgmt has no reason to negotiate.

minimwage4

Was I think is the key word there. I really doubt a furloghed guy there is thinking about undercutting anyone to get ahead. The problem is they became union and did make an average industry contract. So whatever the woes are, it's in the past. It's very unfortunate that TSA could not secure the flying, as I understand it you could have like Mesa and RAH have. But especially the last year or so I really doubt people going there care much about any TSA negotiations that happened years ago. It's just a job that's no worse or no better then the next.

By the way as long as were on this topic. Why did Gojet become union and got industry standard pay rates on the RJ when people were saying management formed it to undercut? It doesn't make much sense.

Foxcow

You might want to take a look at their contract before you make that statement.

TPROP4ever

I think some (like you and captcarl and a few others are a little bit more level headed than most), and no one is saying you should back off your beliefs what I am saying is that two pilots just standing toe to toe and screaming insults endlessly accomplishes nothing. The managment that is banking big money while hard working pilots are on the street is the enemy. Two professionals that disagree can still find a way to work together for a common good. I've said it a million times, that this TSA/Gojet thing is a Hatfields vs McCoys mentality, and in the long run both sides are going to be the worse for it I fear.

250 or point 65

Honestly, they don't really have a contract, because they don't have a union to back it up.

Its also important to note that the contract was "negotiated" and sold to the masses by management cronies. Their "union" is still filled with the same types because if anyone who is not sympathetic to management runs for union office they are just terminated.

I believe that the contract was easily sold as "industry standard" because of 2 points:

1) It came with a "union" and management sympathetic union officials that said it was an industry standard contract. All of the sudden they guys who are over there can say, "everything's ok, we're union now", but don't get ANY of the benefits of a union. Well, except the lanyard and stickers to fool other pilot groups into accepting them.

2) They got a raise in pay. Pay is not the only thing that makes a contract "industry standard". If it were, TSA would have settled their contract a LONG time ago. Even so, they were selling the pilots a raise in pay over the below average 50 seat rate they were getting at the time. Thats an easy sell to an already underpaid, unorganized pilot group.