AP: Pilot Fatigue to be Addressed
09-02-2009, 02:25 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: http://rahcontractnow.org/
Posts: 206
The $50,000 question is why does anything need to be done when there are perfectly good rules in place that already protect a pilot? I guess the only thing I've thought was BS was the min of 8hrs. Bump it to 9 and call it a day. Most of the fatigue related incidents were because of bad decisions made by the pilots. Laws can't fix that. You can take a horse to water but you can't force him to drink. All a pilot has to do is pickup the phone and say "I'm fatigued" and it's a done deal. I've never called fatigue but we have called and had departures pushed back an extra hour or two and it didn't take much effort.
ToiletDuck, in your perfect world, yes, that would happen. As for the rest of us, we are far from a perfect world. We live in a world where it’s a race towards the bottom, run as lien as possible, and use your crews to the absolute maximum that's legally permitted. And then, at the end, try to screw there tired brain into a 91 repo flight.
I've heard many stories of fatigue harassments. One that comes to mind and stands out the most is a conversation with a chief pilot that went like this:
CP: Are you fatigued or tired?
Pilot: What's the difference?
CP: If your tired you can keep on flying.
It's not about whats morally right, it's about what is legally right and that’s the way they play the game. It's time to change that.
09-02-2009, 02:29 PM
#32
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Sorry, but there isn't much difference between 8hrs and 9hrs.
Was not the 170 CA at CLE under pressure due to a sick/fatigue issue?
Sounds easy enough. My company has instituted that a fatigue call now has to be ASAP'd. There's been more than one guy that's done it, and has to come into a hearing with the ERC, as well as the FAA to clarify what led up to the call in the first place. Making it ASAP, good idea. Requiring the pilot to come in and explain it, BS. And my company has a strong MEC, I'd hate to see what would happen at companies with weak union leadership, or none at all.
I'm not making the point that there isn't room for improvement. I'm making the point that the leading preventative measure for combating fatigue is already there and not being utilized like it should. Let your company hate you but there's never a reason you should feel forced to fly. If you're sick or fatigued pickup the phone and make the call. I think getting that point across is more affective than some of these rules.
Maybe they should take into account physical fitness a little more while their at it. Some of these guys break a sweat and look beat to death just walking through the terminal carrying their bags
Last edited by ToiletDuck; 09-02-2009 at 02:55 PM.
09-02-2009, 02:39 PM
#33
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Let them work on whatever laws they want but for all you know it could take a long time and have little effect. But right now that medical in your pocket still gives you the protection you need for when you feel it's time to pull the plug. That medical makes it legally right. Morals have nothing to do with it.
09-02-2009, 02:43 PM
#34
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
My guess is few if any pilots in recent years have been fired for "calling fatigued." But a bet there are a bunch of pilots who have called fatigued at an inopportune time and later got a few extra line checks, or a PC from H3LL, or letters of reprimand for not following uniform standards, or any other nit picky things that could add up to reason for dismissal.
09-02-2009, 02:47 PM
#35
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
I don't think you're paranoid I agree with you. Like I said make checkins at the hotel start your rest and go from there. Bump min rest to 9hrs and make it a hard number. I just think there's a big lack of attention on pilots not using current methods available to them to dodge this.
I've said my opinion on things. I feel making me work 25-30% more days per month and greatly increasing my commuting while giving me less time at home to relax and rest is going to wear me out more than some of what we currently have. I'd rather just get a mandatory 9hrs of rest not dropped to 8. To me it's always seemed ample.
If you're fatigued/sick then make the call. To me the "wow" factor is how many feel they don't have that option.
I've said my opinion on things. I feel making me work 25-30% more days per month and greatly increasing my commuting while giving me less time at home to relax and rest is going to wear me out more than some of what we currently have. I'd rather just get a mandatory 9hrs of rest not dropped to 8. To me it's always seemed ample.
If you're fatigued/sick then make the call. To me the "wow" factor is how many feel they don't have that option.
Last edited by ToiletDuck; 09-02-2009 at 03:05 PM.
09-02-2009, 03:06 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: I am the Stig
Posts: 281
Not if 2 of those extra hours are used in transit time.
Unable to see your point or agree with this statement. Airlines that schedule "rest periods" right at the FAR limit give no room what so ever to manage fatigue properly. Sorry, if you've never done it, you can't debate this point. Sorry to blunt with you.
09-02-2009, 03:17 PM
#37
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
There are no regs in 121/135 that protect the pilot because they aren't operation type specific. They are covered in the regs I mentioned above which must still be adhered to.
I agree 100%. Rest starting when the plane is parked is something I'm completely against.
I don't see why an ASAP would be required for a fatigue call. Do you asap a sick call? If they wanted to monitor them make it an irregularity report. Allows them to keep track of issues to make it better. So far we can't produce anyone that has been fired for being fatigued. The "I'm sure somewhere out there a guy got a harder line-check" doesn't make the case. Let the FAA know if you're being hassled. Don't be afraid to tell your company you aren't fit to fly.
Yes I can because regardless of if I've called fatigue/sick or not I know that it's still my responsibility to do so should it happen. I might not have called up and said "i'm fatigued" but we have called and had them move departure times etc and have never heard anything of it. Like you said I haven't had to do it yet and that's because as a pilot I take every precaution I can. I commute in the nights before and get hotels if I have to. I don't do red-eyes from one coast to another after little sleep that night then start a trip. I don't sleep in the crew room before a trip. I don't have a chronic issue then hide it from the company. Those were pilot decisions.
Not if 2 of those extra hours are used in transit time.
None that I know of, but that doesn't mean that like many others have alluded to, their life wasn't made difficult in some other area. And you didn't address the point of the ASAP issue. Should the pilot have to come in and explain a fatigue call? Since we adopted that fatigue calls have gone up.
Sorry, if you've never done it, you can't debate this point. Sorry to blunt with you.
09-02-2009, 04:22 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 202
I agree 100% but read the NTSB reports and when there's an issue involving fatigue they all end with something along the lines of "The pilot failed to notify the company that he/she was unfit to fly". There is always an option for you to not get in that cockpit. If the company is willing to persecute you because of that then you need to get the FAA involved. If they're willing to break that rule they'll probably break others. It is your legal obligation to not fly if you're fatigued or sick. If you still do so then I'm afraid to say it's your fault. I've never hesitated to call sick. Tore my rotator cuff in the middle of a trip and left right then and there. In MSP once we waited over an hour for a hotel van and the capt made a call saying if they didn't move the departure time we'd be fatigued. The tools are there it's up to you as the pilot to make use of them. The company might not be happy and might want an explanation but you still get to make that call. If your CP or company is pressuring you then you contact the FAA immediately. There's a reason all of those conversations are legally required to be recorded. Don't be strong armed!
Let them work on whatever laws they want but for all you know it could take a long time and have little effect. But right now that medical in your pocket still gives you the protection you need for when you feel it's time to pull the plug. That medical makes it legally right. Morals have nothing to do with it.
Let them work on whatever laws they want but for all you know it could take a long time and have little effect. But right now that medical in your pocket still gives you the protection you need for when you feel it's time to pull the plug. That medical makes it legally right. Morals have nothing to do with it.
What you consider to be keeping things simple by bumping required rest to 9 hours I consider to be an antiquated way of looking at FT/DT regulations. Is a pilot who flies a 6 hour transcontinental flight more or less tired than a pilot who flew 6 one hour legs? Does flying at 3AM make a difference to a pilot physiologically than 3PM? Science based rules are long overdue.
09-02-2009, 05:35 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: I am the Stig
Posts: 281
So the FAA can start to compile data and track it.
If the powers that be were as concerned with the FO's recordings of being sick as they were with the overall state of the accident, it may come to that, but I doubt it.
See above. Does the FAA get irreg reports at your airline?
Don't know, a buddy of mine that flew for Airnet got fired for it. Only had to talk to the chief pilot twice in his stint there. BOTH times were over a fatigue issue, the second time was the last, sadly.
When you say "we" do you mean the CA pretty much did everything? And why not tell them you're fatigued? Put it on the radar and let them know there is an issue.
If the powers that be were as concerned with the FO's recordings of being sick as they were with the overall state of the accident, it may come to that, but I doubt it.
When you say "we" do you mean the CA pretty much did everything? And why not tell them you're fatigued? Put it on the radar and let them know there is an issue.
09-02-2009, 06:23 PM
#40
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Yes he made the call on behalf of the crew. Said the van had taken over an hour and that we needed the show time pushed back an hour or it'd be a fatigue call. Doesn't matter who picks up the phone. Why are you consistently trying to make a point that a pilot can't call fatigue? Are you saying you've flown fatigued becauseyou didn't want to tell the company?
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