Pinnacles MEC passes the TA
08-23-2009, 06:19 AM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 460
Delta will have plenty of advance notice to any work action and be able to initially put one MD-88, DC-9, Airbus on any route you fly. Remember it's their route anyway that you are flying on their flight number so the argument for struck work does not apply. Then if you ever get released all they have to do is keep that flight and change the equipment to a larger airplane to maintain a level of adequate service. Not included ASA and all the other guys flying routes that will not be considered struck work.
08-23-2009, 06:26 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: CL-65 captain
Posts: 2,244
I am losing VAC days
I have NO GAIN to my 401k.
so depending on where you are seniority wise, yes it is concessionary. especially for the middle group...below the top 15% to about the top of the bottom 30%
08-23-2009, 06:40 AM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 426
Just remember this gentlemen and Ladies,
After you read the entire TA, listen to the roadshows put on by the NC on how and why the TA is the way it is, take time to read the entire document, and still feel that the contract is subpar then vote no. If you feel that your pilot group needs to take a stand for contract carriers at a time when your entire company business model and how it conducts business with the Legacy carriers is changing due to the economics of the time and both public and airlines' BOD perception then go for it. But if you do it then I hope you are both tough and strong. You are going to need it.
Your route structure is already covered by both the other DCI carriers and mainline so your impact on the operation will be minimal at best IF You EVER GET RELEASED. Delta will have plenty of advance notice to any work action and be able to initially put one MD-88, DC-9, Airbus on any route you fly. Remember it's their route anyway that you are flying on their flight number so the argument for struck work does not apply. Then if you ever get released all they have to do is keep that flight and change the equipment to a larger airplane to maintain a level of adequate service. Not included ASA and all the other guys flying routes that will not be considered struck work.
I have heard in several conversations and posts that a lot of the FO's would be better working at Home Depot or something than working under a concessionary contract as you call it. Well I would start working on that application as a second option because if you are junior and at 9E and you vote the TA down you might need it.
I wish you the best but a lot of what I have heard on this board is rhetoric and heresay based on mindless talking points from "someone in the know". Good luck but remember to temper your actions with wisdom.
After you read the entire TA, listen to the roadshows put on by the NC on how and why the TA is the way it is, take time to read the entire document, and still feel that the contract is subpar then vote no. If you feel that your pilot group needs to take a stand for contract carriers at a time when your entire company business model and how it conducts business with the Legacy carriers is changing due to the economics of the time and both public and airlines' BOD perception then go for it. But if you do it then I hope you are both tough and strong. You are going to need it.
Your route structure is already covered by both the other DCI carriers and mainline so your impact on the operation will be minimal at best IF You EVER GET RELEASED. Delta will have plenty of advance notice to any work action and be able to initially put one MD-88, DC-9, Airbus on any route you fly. Remember it's their route anyway that you are flying on their flight number so the argument for struck work does not apply. Then if you ever get released all they have to do is keep that flight and change the equipment to a larger airplane to maintain a level of adequate service. Not included ASA and all the other guys flying routes that will not be considered struck work.
I have heard in several conversations and posts that a lot of the FO's would be better working at Home Depot or something than working under a concessionary contract as you call it. Well I would start working on that application as a second option because if you are junior and at 9E and you vote the TA down you might need it.
I wish you the best but a lot of what I have heard on this board is rhetoric and heresay based on mindless talking points from "someone in the know". Good luck but remember to temper your actions with wisdom.
If Pinnacle can't afford to operate with acceptable working conditions and pay that at least match our peers then they shouldn't operate at all. I got into this gig accepting the fact that I'd probably be furloughed several times throughout my career. You can conceed to fear if you'd like, but I'm not running around with my tail between my legs. Countless pilot groups have done so in the past and still been furloughed or gone under altogether. Let's just stop the "Sign this or we're out of biz" ignorance.
08-23-2009, 06:45 AM
#64
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Captain, CRJ-200, ASA
Posts: 876
PCL, I said IF, but how would you REALLY know what happened at closed door meetings? You're not there anymore, and I don't care how many "friends" you still have on the MEC, you have no idea what really happened at a closed door MEC meeting. ALPA made veiled threats to us by saying we'd had our last MCF grant, etc if we voted it down. I would be surprised if the same didn't happen there.
08-23-2009, 06:52 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 460
PCL, I said IF, but how would you REALLY know what happened at closed door meetings? You're not there anymore, and I don't care how many "friends" you still have on the MEC, you have no idea what really happened at a closed door MEC meeting. ALPA made veiled threats to us by saying we'd had our last MCF grant, etc if we voted it down. I would be surprised if the same didn't happen there.
08-23-2009, 06:54 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Captain, CRJ-200, ASA
Posts: 876
Just remember this gentlemen and Ladies,
After you read the entire TA, listen to the roadshows put on by the NC on how and why the TA is the way it is, take time to read the entire document, and still feel that the contract is subpar then vote no. If you feel that your pilot group needs to take a stand for contract carriers at a time when your entire company business model and how it conducts business with the Legacy carriers is changing due to the economics of the time and both public and airlines' BOD perception then go for it. But if you do it then I hope you are both tough and strong. You are going to need it.
Your route structure is already covered by both the other DCI carriers and mainline so your impact on the operation will be minimal at best IF You EVER GET RELEASED. Delta will have plenty of advance notice to any work action and be able to initially put one MD-88, DC-9, Airbus on any route you fly. Remember it's their route anyway that you are flying on their flight number so the argument for struck work does not apply. Then if you ever get released all they have to do is keep that flight and change the equipment to a larger airplane to maintain a level of adequate service. Not included ASA and all the other guys flying routes that will not be considered struck work.
I have heard in several conversations and posts that a lot of the FO's would be better working at Home Depot or something than working under a concessionary contract as you call it. Well I would start working on that application as a second option because if you are junior and at 9E and you vote the TA down you might need it.
I wish you the best but a lot of what I have heard on this board is rhetoric and heresay based on mindless talking points from "someone in the know". Good luck but remember to temper your actions with wisdom.
After you read the entire TA, listen to the roadshows put on by the NC on how and why the TA is the way it is, take time to read the entire document, and still feel that the contract is subpar then vote no. If you feel that your pilot group needs to take a stand for contract carriers at a time when your entire company business model and how it conducts business with the Legacy carriers is changing due to the economics of the time and both public and airlines' BOD perception then go for it. But if you do it then I hope you are both tough and strong. You are going to need it.
Your route structure is already covered by both the other DCI carriers and mainline so your impact on the operation will be minimal at best IF You EVER GET RELEASED. Delta will have plenty of advance notice to any work action and be able to initially put one MD-88, DC-9, Airbus on any route you fly. Remember it's their route anyway that you are flying on their flight number so the argument for struck work does not apply. Then if you ever get released all they have to do is keep that flight and change the equipment to a larger airplane to maintain a level of adequate service. Not included ASA and all the other guys flying routes that will not be considered struck work.
I have heard in several conversations and posts that a lot of the FO's would be better working at Home Depot or something than working under a concessionary contract as you call it. Well I would start working on that application as a second option because if you are junior and at 9E and you vote the TA down you might need it.
I wish you the best but a lot of what I have heard on this board is rhetoric and heresay based on mindless talking points from "someone in the know". Good luck but remember to temper your actions with wisdom.
Go ahead and fly that struck PCL route with your MD-88 since it's "your" flying. And you quickly will find your name in a little black book.
YES is would be struck work.
08-23-2009, 09:42 AM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: DC-9 Neo, Right
Posts: 158
Everyone needs to read the TA, and read it carefully. I am trying to keep things "in house" and just on the company board so this thread may not get much. The TA should be out soon for everyone to read, unfortunately road shows are going to turn into town hall meetings.
ATL reps both voted YES.
MSP CA rep voted YES.
MEM reps voted YES.
DTW reps voted NO.
MSP FO rep voted NO.
ATL reps both voted YES.
MSP CA rep voted YES.
MEM reps voted YES.
DTW reps voted NO.
MSP FO rep voted NO.
Thank you DTW!!!!!
08-23-2009, 09:50 AM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: CRJ-200 First Officer
Posts: 262
08-23-2009, 10:00 AM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Trying to remember "Thrust Normal", "Checks", and something else besides "How are the rides today?"
Posts: 117
Look! Another mainline pilot making threats! Way to pressure a pilot group into taking a contract that will put downward pressure on all of us... especially YOU! Duh! The DCI contracts hold yours up. The larger the gap between DCI cost and mainline cost, the more incentive DAL has to shift "your" flying to DCI! Duh! You should be ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNING for them to get real and reject any "industry average" TA.
Go ahead and fly that struck PCL route with your MD-88 since it's "your" flying. And you quickly will find your name in a little black book. YES is would be struck work.
Go ahead and fly that struck PCL route with your MD-88 since it's "your" flying. And you quickly will find your name in a little black book.
YES is would be struck work.Learn to read. I am not making any vielded threats just my observations. I think that both sides of the situation need to be looked at to make an accurate observation and decision. It is easy for those of us that do not have to live under the contract to say vote no including you.
Are there no downsides to voting no?
Reject the TA and the work may continue with both sides trying to get a deal done or the company can go back and offer true concessionary terms. Perfectly legal and by no means bargaining in bad faith at that point. If I were the company I would open all the sections of the contract that I am not happy with. Scheduling, pay rates etc..and offer exactly what they have now. I mean the pilots continue to have stellar performance for the company and the comapny gets to keep them at current book for another 2 years probably before the company will face a cooling off period. All specualtion of course but still a possiblity just like the company coming back to the table and offering more money if the TA is rejected by the pilot group. It's all fun and games until you have to act on all the pontification that happens on this board and literally put your money where your mouth is.
As to the rest of your comments about my flying I remember now why I had you on my ignore list. Time to put you back on it.
Speaking of threats, You making sure my name is in that little black book is laughable. Thanks for the good laugh. I can't wait. If you want PM me and I'll be sure to give you my name and you can start putting it down now. Have a nice day.
To those of you that have to vote on the TA. Good luck and don't worry about John. He'll go back to his hermit hole in a week or so.
08-23-2009, 10:33 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
I think Selcall is one of the first mainline pilots I have seen on this or any board advocating that a Jet/regional carrier group of pilots sign a mediocre TA. All that is preached on the boards by the mainliners is "you guys at the regionals need more pay and better work rules"... yet this guy seems to be advocating just the opposite.
What I do know is Selcall HATES any and all regional companies and firmly believes they should be stuck flying aircraft no bigger than a Saab.
I do admire Selcall for the fact that at least he does not hide his disdain for regional pilots and their companies. Selcall some time ago stated that he would fly 76 seat jets for a comparable wage to what he is making if the QOL was better... well there in lies the rub....mgt is not gonna pay you the same money to fly a 76 aircraft as it does to fly a 150 seat aircraft....... and thats why we have essentially "B" scale airlines.
Oh and those "struck" routes... Selcall.... will be struck routes mainline cant cover them after the fact... well I guess they could but that would be struck work... no way around it.
What I do know is Selcall HATES any and all regional companies and firmly believes they should be stuck flying aircraft no bigger than a Saab.
I do admire Selcall for the fact that at least he does not hide his disdain for regional pilots and their companies. Selcall some time ago stated that he would fly 76 seat jets for a comparable wage to what he is making if the QOL was better... well there in lies the rub....mgt is not gonna pay you the same money to fly a 76 aircraft as it does to fly a 150 seat aircraft....... and thats why we have essentially "B" scale airlines.
Oh and those "struck" routes... Selcall.... will be struck routes mainline cant cover them after the fact... well I guess they could but that would be struck work... no way around it.
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