From the Ramp: A Small Favor
07-06-2009, 04:58 AM
#11
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: Piper Warrior, Left Seat
Posts: 18
It's an immediate right turn out of the spot, but it's fairly flat from my perspective. I realize there's no way to prevent blasting us a little with this turnout, but I've never seen that much thrust used on our ramp, at least not with the rear of the engines pointed towards the terminal, our equipment, and personnel. Even if it wasn't on purpose, it seems quite negligent to use that amount of thrust at that point.
07-06-2009, 05:51 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: standing-by
Posts: 287
It's an immediate right turn out of the spot, but it's fairly flat from my perspective. I realize there's no way to prevent blasting us a little with this turnout, but I've never seen that much thrust used on our ramp, at least not with the rear of the engines pointed towards the terminal, our equipment, and personnel. Even if it wasn't on purpose, it seems quite negligent to use that amount of thrust at that point.
07-06-2009, 06:48 AM
#13
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: Piper Warrior, Left Seat
Posts: 18
I understand. It does seem quite surprising. To be honest, looking back on it, I think perhaps what may have happened is the CA didn't realize we had an agent in the location where he was, yet I firmly believe he wanted to make a point. Either way, waaaaaay too much thrust for the ramp.
Aside from all that, I do want to say it's a pleasure working with you guys. Unfortunately, I'm going to be leaving in mid-August to transfer up to UND to finish the rest of my ratings. I really do hope to share a cockpit with you guys some day, although many of you would have hopefully moved on to greener pastures by then. Never going to forget my time on the ramp.
Aside from all that, I do want to say it's a pleasure working with you guys. Unfortunately, I'm going to be leaving in mid-August to transfer up to UND to finish the rest of my ratings. I really do hope to share a cockpit with you guys some day, although many of you would have hopefully moved on to greener pastures by then. Never going to forget my time on the ramp.
07-06-2009, 07:13 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 167
One of the things I always wonder is why does it seem like the quality of the ramper at our hubs seems well below that of our out stations?? Is it demographics, wages, training,work ethic, motivation, mind set, cultural differences, weather?, and list could go one I guess... what do you all think
07-06-2009, 07:22 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: Moving backwards
Posts: 220
I saw an incident in Bellingham with an MD80. The captain was turning out of the spot and added far too much power. I was wondering why the rampers were running until I saw the baggage carts flying.
Please always be aware of where your butt is swinging.
USMC-SGT- we had another interesting incident with the megawacker. On a freezing rain night in Eugene we parked and went to start/feather on the condition levers. The blades changing angle produced enough thrust to move us forward. We nudged into the tug at the gate. We were extremely thankful the ramper marshaling us was standing on top of the tug rather than in front of it as usual. Our specs changed soon after to include a recommendation to move one engine at a time to start/feather on slippery surfaces.
Please always be aware of where your butt is swinging.
USMC-SGT- we had another interesting incident with the megawacker. On a freezing rain night in Eugene we parked and went to start/feather on the condition levers. The blades changing angle produced enough thrust to move us forward. We nudged into the tug at the gate. We were extremely thankful the ramper marshaling us was standing on top of the tug rather than in front of it as usual. Our specs changed soon after to include a recommendation to move one engine at a time to start/feather on slippery surfaces.
07-06-2009, 07:49 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 585
While events can happen unintentionally, there does need to be reporting of it. There could be the procedure that needs to be changed or someone needs a slap upside the head, either way it needs to happen before someone gets killed. A little paperwork now could prevent a lot of paperwork in the future.
BTW, rampers are allowed access to NASA's ASRS program. One would use the general reporting form unless a mechanic: ASRS - Aviation Safety Reporting System
A general report a ramper filed on static discharge during a fueling operation due to a new ramp seal made its way up the chain at the airline where I was working, where several ramps were due to be sealed potentially having the same problem. Due to the report, the airline did tests, and the problem was resolved before something bad happened.
BTW, rampers are allowed access to NASA's ASRS program. One would use the general reporting form unless a mechanic: ASRS - Aviation Safety Reporting System
A general report a ramper filed on static discharge during a fueling operation due to a new ramp seal made its way up the chain at the airline where I was working, where several ramps were due to be sealed potentially having the same problem. Due to the report, the airline did tests, and the problem was resolved before something bad happened.
07-06-2009, 07:58 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 183
When SMS starts up here in the states, it will provide you all with a great outlet to do this. SMS unlike ASAP incompasses every person involved in operations. From the aircraft cleaning crew and lav dumper, all the way to the CEO. Anyone who has a safety issue can fill out an SMS and it will be processed nonpunitively like the ASAP program..
07-06-2009, 08:27 AM
#18
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: Piper Warrior, Left Seat
Posts: 18
One of the things I always wonder is why does it seem like the quality of the ramper at our hubs seems well below that of our out stations?? Is it demographics, wages, training,work ethic, motivation, mind set, cultural differences, weather?, and list could go one I guess... what do you all think
Hubs = Quantity/Quality??
Outstations = Quality/Quantity??
And another thing, for the ATL ramp at least, Delta rampers are working the ASA flights, rather than ASA rampers. Perhaps they're just not as motivated because it's not their company (and not their Performance Plus bonus checks). Lack of motivation...
07-06-2009, 10:18 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
... It is unacceptable, dangerous, childish and negligent to turn out from a parking space, point your tail towards your rampers and deliver an unusually high amount of thrust (causing the gate agents upstairs to come to the window wondering what was going on), simply because you were wrong about the max which was in plain English on the release that you held in your hands........ .
1. Was this the first time Capt operated at your gateway?
2. Just because it looks flat, slope can definitely affect power required to move a plane in a turn, etc. When I was an F/O I didn't really notice the slopes until I sat in the left seat and realized the challenge.
3. Was it a single engine taxi (if so, perhaps a company note to say "No single engine taxi leaving ramp.."
4. Does the operating manual have power limitations for taxi? Ours do, and the F/O has to back up the Capt whose eyes are outside and cannot always tell they are exceeding the limits.
5. Do you have a tug available for the situation that the plane gets 'stuck' leaving a congested ramp so unsafe levels of power are not needed?
6. Should a tug be used to back all aircraft up at your station and position for safer ground/ramp ops?
7. How many similiar incidents at this gateway regarding this type aircraft have been reported? Other aircraft types?
8. Was the aircraft late for departure?
9. Did flight have a departure clearance limitation?
10. Does your operation include a 'ramp brief' outlining personnel locations, identified concerns (heavy weight/ice/contamination, etc)? IS it located in the company gateway notification?
Could go on, but simply drawing a conclusion based on perceptions will not arrive at the safest solution. Perhaps your conclusion is correct, but I am more concerned for the long term safety to arrive at a fact based, detailed operations view of the ramp environment and the metrics that affect safety and good business productivity/efficiency.
07-06-2009, 10:47 AM
#20
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: Piper Warrior, Left Seat
Posts: 18
With all due respect, you seemed to have arrived at a conclusion regarding the Captain. As someone as equally interested in safety in tight, obstructed, congested operating areas there are numerous questions that should be asked before drawing a conclusion to truly arrive at a solution.
1. Was this the first time Capt operated at your gateway?
Don't know.
2. Just because it looks flat, slope can definitely affect power required to move a plane in a turn, etc. When I was an F/O I didn't really notice the slopes until I sat in the left seat and realized the challenge.
I understand. From my perspective, it is flat, but as you mention, I have not had the perspective of a pilot operating an aircraft on this particular ramp.
3. Was it a single engine taxi (if so, perhaps a company note to say "No single engine taxi leaving ramp.."
No. I have, however, witnessed (and marshaled) single engine taxi from this position.
4. Does the operating manual have power limitations for taxi? Ours do, and the F/O has to back up the Capt whose eyes are outside and cannot always tell they are exceeding the limits.
Don't know.
5. Do you have a tug available for the situation that the plane gets 'stuck' leaving a congested ramp so unsafe levels of power are not needed?
We have a "tray-style" pushback unit for such situations. Few of us are trained for its use as our normal procedure is to turn-out aircraft.
6. Should a tug be used to back all aircraft up at your station and position for safer ground/ramp ops?
Not of the authority to make that decision. IMHO, no, as pushback would still require the aircraft to turn the tail towards the ramp.
7. How many similiar incidents at this gateway regarding this type aircraft have been reported? Other aircraft types?
Cannot say for sure, but I as well as the other personnel on duty that day had not witnessed such an occurrence. Currently, only this type of aircraft is scheduled to operate on this ramp.
8. Was the aircraft late for departure?
Yes. Late arrival + disagreement regarding max = late departure.
9. Did flight have a departure clearance limitation?
Don't know.
10. Does your operation include a 'ramp brief' outlining personnel locations, identified concerns (heavy weight/ice/contamination, etc)? IS it located in the company gateway notification?
All training material and bulletins are accessible to personnel on the company website and on bulletin boards located at the station.
Could go on, but simply drawing a conclusion based on perceptions will not arrive at the safest solution. Perhaps your conclusion is correct, but I am more concerned for the long term safety to arrive at a fact based, detailed operations view of the ramp environment and the metrics that affect safety and good business productivity/efficiency.
1. Was this the first time Capt operated at your gateway?
Don't know.
2. Just because it looks flat, slope can definitely affect power required to move a plane in a turn, etc. When I was an F/O I didn't really notice the slopes until I sat in the left seat and realized the challenge.
I understand. From my perspective, it is flat, but as you mention, I have not had the perspective of a pilot operating an aircraft on this particular ramp.
3. Was it a single engine taxi (if so, perhaps a company note to say "No single engine taxi leaving ramp.."
No. I have, however, witnessed (and marshaled) single engine taxi from this position.
4. Does the operating manual have power limitations for taxi? Ours do, and the F/O has to back up the Capt whose eyes are outside and cannot always tell they are exceeding the limits.
Don't know.
5. Do you have a tug available for the situation that the plane gets 'stuck' leaving a congested ramp so unsafe levels of power are not needed?
We have a "tray-style" pushback unit for such situations. Few of us are trained for its use as our normal procedure is to turn-out aircraft.
6. Should a tug be used to back all aircraft up at your station and position for safer ground/ramp ops?
Not of the authority to make that decision. IMHO, no, as pushback would still require the aircraft to turn the tail towards the ramp.
7. How many similiar incidents at this gateway regarding this type aircraft have been reported? Other aircraft types?
Cannot say for sure, but I as well as the other personnel on duty that day had not witnessed such an occurrence. Currently, only this type of aircraft is scheduled to operate on this ramp.
8. Was the aircraft late for departure?
Yes. Late arrival + disagreement regarding max = late departure.
9. Did flight have a departure clearance limitation?
Don't know.
10. Does your operation include a 'ramp brief' outlining personnel locations, identified concerns (heavy weight/ice/contamination, etc)? IS it located in the company gateway notification?
All training material and bulletins are accessible to personnel on the company website and on bulletin boards located at the station.
Could go on, but simply drawing a conclusion based on perceptions will not arrive at the safest solution. Perhaps your conclusion is correct, but I am more concerned for the long term safety to arrive at a fact based, detailed operations view of the ramp environment and the metrics that affect safety and good business productivity/efficiency.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
