⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

Do you not see how that is bringing down your wages and value as an airline pilot?

No, I don’t see that at all…

For example, what's better for you, a 40% paycut, or 80% paycut if you have to start over?

So you are saying I should plan my professional life on other ‘more experienced’ pilots (usually meaning they're good buddies with the CEO, the chief pilot, etc.) getting in front of me just because that’s the right thing to do, right?

The management can port their "skills" and rape and pillage various airlines, and leave you holding a bag because you're restricted by "seniority" and NOTHING ELSE matters to you. Because of that mentality... you are a number, you are a liability, you're a union monkey...

Ok, one could also argue that because of the way you think you must be the management’s monkey…

Here's another reason - union pilots forget it's about people/cargo, etc. I'm one of those who says that "EXPERIENCE" and not seniority should control many aspects - pay being one of the most important ones. If you are a 2000 hour RJ pilot... I'm sorry, but if Sully comes to your airline, THE CUSTOMER, be it passenger or cargo or VIP, deserves the best qualified pilot being in charge. Do you think you serve customer needs the best with a seniority system that's built entirely around the date of hire? I don't. Here's another one - personal experience.

Several years flying Boeings, regional captain before that.... my airline goes under. Should I fly for 20k again? I'm sorry... I value my professional worth a little more than that, and as a result, I get paid appropriately for my experience, not for my date of hire.

Absolutely! Apparently your experience didn’t help you in deciding which airline had the highest probability of survival… You took a gamble and now you want others to pay for your mistake? Don’t think so…

Tomorrow my airline might be next on the chopping blocks but I won’t expect to be hired ahead of others at my ‘new’ airline just because I made the wrong choice in the past...

I didn't and don't have to kiss anyone's butt. I negotiated my contract, and I take pride in being a PROFESSIONAL and getting paid as one.

Ok, so you want 3,000, or better yet 12,0000 pilots (Delta) to individually negotiate their salaries? Wow, that’ll take some time…

As a union pilot, how can you demand to be treated like a professional when you're just a number whose worth is determined not by experience or some other measurement, but only by date of hire? In other words... why should anyone pay you or treat you like a professional when you, yourself, don't treat or regard yourself or your peers as professionals in a true sense?

The difference between you and I is that you actually believe in what the management tells you…

RJSAviator76

Your loss, buddy.

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. When you are the most qualified individual around, you get your chance. If you don't like how it is, the ability to leave and go someplace where you will be given more advancement opportunity is absolutely PRICELESS. That is something you do not have right now and you seem incapable of comprehending the concept. Understandable from someone working exclusively in a union environment.

Actually, I'm just another corporate pilot who saw the light and left the 121 world in the dust.

Exactly, tomorrow your airline might be on the chopping block, and that's why I want your experience to count for something if it does or if you choose to leave your airline. It's called leverage... works great. Trust me!

When I was hired by my 'career' airline, it was healthy, ordering new airplanes, announcing new routes, etc. Funny how things change...

I don't want you to PAY for my "mistake." I want you to LEARN from my "mistake." Again, you don't seem to value your experience very much, and that's unfortunate. On the other hand, I value mine... and call me elitist if you want, but I value my experience much higher than the first year pay at any airline.

Not necessarily, but I want them to be able to make a livable wage should Delta ever, God forbid, tank, or they choose to leave. Again, it's called having leverage, which union pilots simply don't have. I want them to be paid in accordance with their TOTAL experience, not their DATE OF HIRE.... make sense?

Guilty as charged. What can I say... when my salary gets deposited and it's correct; when my working conditions are just as they're spelled out in my contract; when I am treated like a professional that I know I am... I guess you can say that I do believe in what "the management" tells me.

The real difference between you and I is that you actually believe in what your UNION tells you. I just know better...

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

We seem to disagree 100% on this subject but I enjoyed the discussion…

Your loss, buddy.

Not really a loss; I view it as a huge gain… LOL

Quote:
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. When you are the most qualified individual around, you get your chance. If you don't like how it is, the ability to leave and go someplace where you will be given more advancement opportunity is absolutely PRICELESS. That is something you do not have right now and you seem incapable of comprehending the concept. Understandable from someone working exclusively in a union environment.

I have worked in a non-union environment… 1 corporate outfit and 2 very small airlines. What I have witnessed is a good ‘ole boy network where it’s all about who you know and not so much about what you know… I wasn’t the only one who saw the ‘system’ at work but the few who raised their voices were very promptly silenced…

I knew it was a temporary stop for me so frankly I didn’t care that much but felt sorry for the few who were hoping to stay there for the long run…

Quote:
Actually, I'm just another corporate pilot who saw the light and left the 121 world in the dust.

After witnessing your ‘most qualified individual’ system at work I knew that the corporate world wasn’t for me… Some love it and I’m happy for them (you) but to claim your ‘most-qualified’ system is superior to a seniority system is very disingenuous at best… Often it works but more often than not it is simply about connections… Has nothing to do with ones qualifications…

Quote:
When I was hired by my 'career' airline, it was healthy, ordering new airplanes, announcing new routes, etc. Funny how things change...

I don't want you to PAY for my "mistake." I want you to LEARN from my "mistake." Again, you don't seem to value your experience very much, and that's unfortunate. On the other hand, I value mine... and call me elitist if you want, but I value my experience much higher than the first year pay at any airline.

I am sorry to hear about your former airline, I truly am, but I will not expect to get ahead of you if my airline files chapter 11 and I happen to have more time in the type of airplane you fly (or happen to sleep with the chief pilot’s daughter )

I HAVE learned from your (and my) mistakes and that’s why I believe a seniority system is better than your so called ‘qualification’ system… If it worked in real life then I guess I’d consider it but the truth is that system is very flawed because it favors those in the know and not those who know…

Quote:
Not necessarily, but I want them to be able to make a livable wage should Delta ever, God forbid, tank, or they choose to leave. Again, it's called having leverage, which union pilots simply don't have. I want them to be paid in accordance with their TOTAL experience, not their DATE OF HIRE.... make sense?

I know that you want “paid in accordance with their total experience” but what you’ll get is “paid in accordance with connections and the size of their wallets.” So let’s just agree to disagree…

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Guilty as charged. What can I say... when my salary gets deposited and it's correct; when my working conditions are just as they're spelled out in my contract; when I am treated like a professional that I know I am... I guess you can say that I do believe in what "the management" tells me.

Yeah, my buddy told me that unions were not needed as long as everything is spelled out in the contract… Then JAL simply laid him off… Not saying a union would've saved him but a contract isn't always the answer either...

The real difference between you and I is that you actually believe in what your UNION tells you. I just know better...

Wrong, I trust no one but myself… however when it comes to it my union seems to protect my interests much better than the management…

PS. So what's your title anyways?

RJSAviator76

One man's trash is another man's gold and vice versa. I also enjoy the discussion.

I'm sorry you have had horrible experience. I also had similar experience flying for a cargo outfit... Let's just say it was a less-than-desirable place to work, but it served its purpose - I built up some multi time to move on. I accepted it as 'paying my dues.' However, how many times do 'professionals' have to "pay their dues?" It is part of gaining experience. Just how you know now that the corporate operator you worked for was less-than-desirable, you should apply that experience in how you handle any future employers. I did. It serves me great.

I'm not saying that seniority system has no place. I do, however, object to "paying dues" more than once in the same field. In other words, a laid-off ATA or Aloha pilot should get paid more than someone with 500 hours and a wet commercial multi ticket. The seniority system doesn't allow it, and that's the bulk of my argument. You can reward longevity with higher bidding preference when it comes to schedules, vacations, more profit-sharing or bonuses... wait, nevermind... union pilots don't get bonuses. You get my drift...

Hey, if you can... more power to you. If you aren't "working the system", take pride in treating your crew correctly, and most importantly, providing superior customer service to your passengers or clients... and you do a better job than me, well... you earned it.

You are correct... and it reflects the quality of the operator you are working for. If you work for a dirtbag, the beautiful part is that you can leave and not have to take a massive paycut by doing so. See... in a seniority system, you are at a major disadvantage - you'll have to start in poverty level wages every time, and you cannot vote with your feet. Why do you think managements squander millions and millions on "retaining talent?" Why should they do that with you? It's a question of self-worth.


Again, it's the quality of an operator. On the other hand, I can tell you a number of places (including mine) where you're paid based on equipment exclusively. Your date of hire bears no reflection in your paycheck.

You're right. But it also depends on who you work for. Having a union does not indicate a victory for employees. Generally, it indicates failure of some kind. Something to keep in mind. But that failure also comes at the expense of employees as well...

Not saying they aren't... but just remember, when your interests aren't the same as the ones of the union, they'll throw you under the bus just as fast as the management. Don't delude yourself in that the union is your friend.

Same as any four-striper... The Grand Poohbah!

Mesabah

Actually, if pilots had a professional society that wasn't associated with the union, more would get done in the area of safety than is done now. You can see this in the fact that the AOPA has done more for general aviation safety than has ALPA for 121 safety.

ALPA has been lobbying for years to get the fatigue rules changed. Now they are being considered, not because of ALPA, but because of the BUF crash. Sad but true; if you want to do your part for air safety, find out what is wrong and crash your plane because of it. If we had an independent professional society that sets standards, much like other professionals have(engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc), we could do way more in the area of safety.

NWA320pilot

Tell her you don't want to be on here: SCAB_List_updated_2004.pdf - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage for the rest of your life for crossing a picket line........

Mason32

Sounds like another good reason for a national list.... seniority as an airline pilot.... not as an AA pilot, Delta Pilot, NW Pilot... in other words seniority portability based on date of hire as an airline pilot.... much like other unionized professions, not trades. Could be worked much like the screen actors guild... each airline paying to the union, and the union providing health insurance, benefits, retirement.... all portable in case you leave through BK, sale, merger... whatever.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

Great idea! Why don't we have a National List for everything?

Let's have a National Mortgage Seniority list so when you or I default on our loans we'll get the help we "deserve"... Oh, wait a second - we are doing that already...

Maybe we should merge all of our airlines into two huge, preferable government run entities and call them Peoples Passenger Airline and Peoples Cargo Airline...

You won’t have to worry about making any choices since you’ll be on this ‘National Seniority’ list as soon as you solo in a Super Cub… All pilots on the National Pilot Seniority list, all flight Attendants on the National Flight Attendant Seniority list, all janitors on the National Janitor Seniority list, etc, etc…

All the problems will be solved and we’ll be able to focus on giving each other hugs and singing kumbaya songs instead of making rational decisions, such as trying to determine which airline might have the best long term chances of survival, etc, etc… Why think? Let the government do it for us!

While we are at it, lets get rid of our Congress and make it a Peoples Congress; screw elections, we don't need them because we can trust our politicians... Then we can exchange our green backs for the Roubles... Wait a second, maybe we are heading in that direction already?

wheresmyplane

Correct me if I'm wrong but a national seniority list doesn't mean a government run seniority list.... Just a way of ranking pilots so that when the airline you've been at for 20 years goes under you don't have to start at "Bob's Regional" for peanuts. From what I hear from a UK friend they already have a system where you are compensated based on your time in the industry over there. Yes, there would be people unhappy with this at first, but what about years from now? Seems like it would solve a lot of problems in the longrun, even if it steps on some toes now. Can't make everybody happy. Thoughts?

P.S. Even in a lot of trades you can at least enter a new job at a higher level of pay based on whether you're an apprentice/journeyman, whatever.

frankwasright

Hey,my flight department just closed.Your boss hired me to be your boss,since I've been at this longer than you (more experience,types,etc.)-you have any problem with that ? Oh,and I make way more than you. You're cool with that,right ? I AM "entitled" to it,after all.