Bombardier/Embraer Competitors
10-02-2009, 06:54 AM
#11
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 467
Q Series Competitor
Regional Jets aren't the only aircraft entering the competition. Don't forget the large turboprops:
ATR presents the first ATR '-600 series' aircraft - ATR
ATR presents the first ATR '-600 series' aircraft - ATR
Last edited by winglet; 10-02-2009 at 08:05 AM.
10-02-2009, 07:50 AM
#13
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Posts: 1,001
Boeing is the only manufacturer trying to build in composite on a large scale currently (A corporate jet manufacturer built and test flew a composite barrel, but then the economy went south, so they shelved it for now - I think this was Raytheon). I'm sure Airbus is watching closely, but even their A350 design is a metal barrel, though I don't doubt that Airbus is tinkering in a back room on the idea, and could ramp up production if Boeing's barrels are successful in normal operations.
10-02-2009, 11:22 AM
#14
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Position: CRJ-200 First Officer
Posts: 262
The MRJ will only be 15% composite. Mitsubishi had a partnership with Boeing on this. They separated ways in 2008, and the MRJ went to an aluminum construction base.
Boeing is the only manufacturer trying to build in composite on a large scale currently (A corporate jet manufacturer built and test flew a composite barrel, but then the economy went south, so they shelved it for now - I think this was Raytheon). I'm sure Airbus is watching closely, but even their A350 design is a metal barrel, though I don't doubt that Airbus is tinkering in a back room on the idea, and could ramp up production if Boeing's barrels are successful in normal operations.
Boeing is the only manufacturer trying to build in composite on a large scale currently (A corporate jet manufacturer built and test flew a composite barrel, but then the economy went south, so they shelved it for now - I think this was Raytheon). I'm sure Airbus is watching closely, but even their A350 design is a metal barrel, though I don't doubt that Airbus is tinkering in a back room on the idea, and could ramp up production if Boeing's barrels are successful in normal operations.
10-02-2009, 11:37 AM
#15
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True. The 350 construction technique is traditional, but the panels and stringers will be composite.
Actually this is a half-measure by airbus...they would have preferred a one-piece fuselage barrel, but did not have access to the giant autoclaves needed to cure such parts.
The original 350 design was just a warmed over A330 (ie aluminum) but customers balked at that so airbus had to add some better features to the 350XB. Since they blew all of their R&D budget on the great white 380, they could not afford to clean-slate the 350.
Actually this is a half-measure by airbus...they would have preferred a one-piece fuselage barrel, but did not have access to the giant autoclaves needed to cure such parts.
The original 350 design was just a warmed over A330 (ie aluminum) but customers balked at that so airbus had to add some better features to the 350XB. Since they blew all of their R&D budget on the great white 380, they could not afford to clean-slate the 350.
10-02-2009, 11:40 AM
#16
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Position: CRJ-200 First Officer
Posts: 262
True. The 350 construction technique is traditional, but the panels and stringers will be composite.
Actually this is a half-measure by airbus...they would have preferred a one-piece fuselage barrel, but did not have access to the giant autoclaves needed to cure such parts.
The original 350 design was just a warmed over A330 (ie aluminum) but customers balked at that so airbus had to add some better features to the 350XB. Since they blew all of their R&D budget on the great white 380, they could not afford to clean-slate the 350.
Actually this is a half-measure by airbus...they would have preferred a one-piece fuselage barrel, but did not have access to the giant autoclaves needed to cure such parts.
The original 350 design was just a warmed over A330 (ie aluminum) but customers balked at that so airbus had to add some better features to the 350XB. Since they blew all of their R&D budget on the great white 380, they could not afford to clean-slate the 350.
10-05-2009, 07:47 AM
#17
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 467
Comac 919
Meanwhile, as we squabble...
Introducing some Bombaer/Boebus competition...
Comac Begins Building C919 Structure | AVIATION WEEK
Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China
Their flight schools are slowly maturing as well. So as we U.S. airline pilots childishly squabble over which airline/airplane/contract is the best/worst, the Chinese/Indians are slowly making your arguments a mute point. Come on ALPA/USAPA/APA etc. get your collective act together. Focus on the big picture. Protect and improve your Scope and stop the proliferation of cheap outsourcing. You think the regional code-share outsource issue is bad now, wait until the Chinese and Indians are done with you. A "Mainline" aircraft will soon be 200 seats and more if the trend continues. We'll have to change the monikers "Mainline" and "Regional" to "trans-oceanic" and "inter-continental". Realize that the "trans-oceanic" airlines will be a tiny fraction of the "inter-continental" airlines. There is plenty of blame to go around. Let's stop the in-fighting, reverse the trend, take what we have left, and begin making improvements to the U.S. airline industry as a whole.
winglet
Introducing some Bombaer/Boebus competition...
Comac Begins Building C919 Structure | AVIATION WEEK
Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China
Their flight schools are slowly maturing as well. So as we U.S. airline pilots childishly squabble over which airline/airplane/contract is the best/worst, the Chinese/Indians are slowly making your arguments a mute point. Come on ALPA/USAPA/APA etc. get your collective act together. Focus on the big picture. Protect and improve your Scope and stop the proliferation of cheap outsourcing. You think the regional code-share outsource issue is bad now, wait until the Chinese and Indians are done with you. A "Mainline" aircraft will soon be 200 seats and more if the trend continues. We'll have to change the monikers "Mainline" and "Regional" to "trans-oceanic" and "inter-continental". Realize that the "trans-oceanic" airlines will be a tiny fraction of the "inter-continental" airlines. There is plenty of blame to go around. Let's stop the in-fighting, reverse the trend, take what we have left, and begin making improvements to the U.S. airline industry as a whole.
winglet
Last edited by winglet; 10-05-2009 at 10:45 AM.
10-05-2009, 12:32 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
While I'm certainly not an ALPA apologist, ALPA is well aware of the issues.
The Indians and Chinese are currently prohibited from invading the US domestic market (the largest aviation travel market in the world, though certainly not the easiest one to make $ in) b/c they don't have 5th freedom rights. However, the EU is working very hard at whittling away these policies through 'open skies' talks. For all the bad-mouthing of ALPA, they are the largest pilot presence in the discussion right now - IBT and CAPA do not have seats @ the table in a meaningful way, for better or for worse.
Codeshare is the new scope, and we all should be worried, not just mainline pilots. Midwest Airlines' pilot jobs were eliminated through a 'codeshare' too - meaning even the short haul domestic market isn't immune to codeshare issues. If you think some of our regionals can do the job on the cheap, you 'aint seen nothin' yet - the costs, or lack there of, that the Chinese will ultimately be able to unleash on the markets they have access to will make even the most efficient low cost operators and RJ pilot pushing outfits blush with envy. If you don't want the entire US aviation industry to be stamped with a 'made in China', you better get behind ALPA. Like it or not, ALPA's all we've all got right now.
And @ least ALPA doesn't forget to write "A350 design is a metal barrel design just with composite panels" . . . leave that little tidbit out, it changes the whole post, and you get jumped on! My bad, or course the A350 isn't a metal barrel.
The Indians and Chinese are currently prohibited from invading the US domestic market (the largest aviation travel market in the world, though certainly not the easiest one to make $ in) b/c they don't have 5th freedom rights. However, the EU is working very hard at whittling away these policies through 'open skies' talks. For all the bad-mouthing of ALPA, they are the largest pilot presence in the discussion right now - IBT and CAPA do not have seats @ the table in a meaningful way, for better or for worse.
Codeshare is the new scope, and we all should be worried, not just mainline pilots. Midwest Airlines' pilot jobs were eliminated through a 'codeshare' too - meaning even the short haul domestic market isn't immune to codeshare issues. If you think some of our regionals can do the job on the cheap, you 'aint seen nothin' yet - the costs, or lack there of, that the Chinese will ultimately be able to unleash on the markets they have access to will make even the most efficient low cost operators and RJ pilot pushing outfits blush with envy. If you don't want the entire US aviation industry to be stamped with a 'made in China', you better get behind ALPA. Like it or not, ALPA's all we've all got right now.
And @ least ALPA doesn't forget to write "A350 design is a metal barrel design just with composite panels" . . . leave that little tidbit out, it changes the whole post, and you get jumped on! My bad, or course the A350 isn't a metal barrel.
10-05-2009, 02:23 PM
#19
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 467
Contract Concession Management Consultants
If you think some of our regionals can do the job on the cheap, you 'aint seen nothin' yet - the costs, or lack there of, that the Chinese will ultimately be able to unleash on the markets they have access to will make even the most efficient low cost operators and RJ pilot pushing outfits blush with envy. If you don't want the entire US aviation industry to be stamped with a 'made in China', you better get behind ALPA. Like it or not, ALPA's all we've all got right now.
I agree and this is exactly what I was alluding to. The airline pilot unions should focus on the big picture instead of fighting over the scraps. They seem to be chasing their tails and ignoring the key issues. Their primary focus seems to be damage control to the "major" airline contracts. ALPA has become a "contract concessions management consultant". I understand it's a sensitive issue but with some education from ALPA I believe the "regional" pilots would support stronger scope at the "mainline" carriers and "mainline" pilots would be willing to fly 70-80-90 seat "regional" jets. ALPA needs to prioritize it's concerns and in this order:
1. SCOPE. Stamp out and reverse the outsourcing/codeshare/wholly owned sickness, etc. by reversing the scope concessions.
2. CODE-SHARE. Show leadership and stop condoning the current caste system of the "regional" vs. "mainline" pilot groups. Educate the new airline pilot about the whipsaw tactics of airline managements. The term "regional" shouldn't even be in the ALPA lexicon.
4. CONTRACTS. Win back the concessions; especially benefits and pensions.
5. OPENSKIES/CABOTAGE. Prepare for the Chinese/Indian invasion. Aircraft manufacturers and pilots!
Everything else is to be put on a back burner until these priorities are accomplished. If not then the downward spiral will continue until they are weakened to the point of not being able to fight against the coming war on cabotage protection.
winglet
Last edited by winglet; 10-05-2009 at 02:44 PM.
10-05-2009, 03:39 PM
#20
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Devil's Advocate
Posts: 2,883
Sniper,
I agree and this is exactly what I was alluding to. The airline pilot unions should focus on the big picture instead of fighting over the scraps. They seem to be chasing their tails and ignoring the key issues. Their primary focus seems to be damage control to the "major" airline contracts. ALPA has become a "contract concessions management consultant". I understand it's a sensitive issue but with some education from ALPA I believe the "regional" pilots would support stronger scope at the "mainline" carriers and "mainline" pilots would be willing to fly 70-80-90 seat "regional" jets. ALPA needs to prioritize it's concerns and in this order:
1. SCOPE. Stamp out and reverse the outsourcing/codeshare/wholly owned sickness, etc. by reversing the scope concessions.
2. CODE-SHARE. Show leadership and stop condoning the current caste system of the "regional" vs. "mainline" pilot groups. Educate the new airline pilot about the whipsaw tactics of airline managements. The term "regional" shouldn't even be in the ALPA lexicon.
4. CONTRACTS. Win back the concessions; especially benefits and pensions.
5. OPENSKIES/CABOTAGE. Prepare for the Chinese/Indian invasion. Aircraft manufacturers and pilots!
Everything else is to be put on a back burner until these priorities are accomplished. If not then the downward spiral will continue until they are weakened to the point of not being able to fight against the coming war on cabotage protection.
winglet
I agree and this is exactly what I was alluding to. The airline pilot unions should focus on the big picture instead of fighting over the scraps. They seem to be chasing their tails and ignoring the key issues. Their primary focus seems to be damage control to the "major" airline contracts. ALPA has become a "contract concessions management consultant". I understand it's a sensitive issue but with some education from ALPA I believe the "regional" pilots would support stronger scope at the "mainline" carriers and "mainline" pilots would be willing to fly 70-80-90 seat "regional" jets. ALPA needs to prioritize it's concerns and in this order:
1. SCOPE. Stamp out and reverse the outsourcing/codeshare/wholly owned sickness, etc. by reversing the scope concessions.
2. CODE-SHARE. Show leadership and stop condoning the current caste system of the "regional" vs. "mainline" pilot groups. Educate the new airline pilot about the whipsaw tactics of airline managements. The term "regional" shouldn't even be in the ALPA lexicon.
4. CONTRACTS. Win back the concessions; especially benefits and pensions.
5. OPENSKIES/CABOTAGE. Prepare for the Chinese/Indian invasion. Aircraft manufacturers and pilots!
Everything else is to be put on a back burner until these priorities are accomplished. If not then the downward spiral will continue until they are weakened to the point of not being able to fight against the coming war on cabotage protection.
winglet
